After claiming repeatedly in the media that the fight to end public worker bargaining rights was all about the budget, Governor Walker stripped the collective bargaining provisions out of the budget (which required the participation of at least one Democrat to have a big enough quorum to satisfy Constitutional requirements for fiscal votes) and the Wisconsin legislature passed it separately.
Details from David Dayen:
If you’ve been following along in my last post, you know the news: the Wisconsin State Senate rushed through and passed a bill that strips collective bargaining rights from most public employees. The vote in the State Senate, entirely composed of Republicans, was 18-1; only moderate Dale Schultz voted no. The budget repair bill was split at the last minute, cleaving the “non-fiscal” anti-union piece from the fiscal components of the bill. The non-fiscal piece did not require a quorum, so the Senate was able to pass it.
This may not pass muster constitutionally in Wisconsin. Here is the germane language:
Vote on fiscal bills; quorum. SECTION 8. On the passage in either house of the legislature of any law which imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state, the question shall be taken by yeas and nays, which shall be duly entered on the journal; and three−fifths of all the members elected to such house shall in all such cases be required to constitute a quorum therein
The language may seem ambiguous (claim of rather than claim on?). But there is likely to be precedent, and if not, the Court would look to the debates at the time the constitution was passed, to resolve the question of intent. It is very likely that the concerns expressed then would extend to both sides of the fiscal equation, that is, tax collection and disbursements, which would thus include obligations like employee contracts.
And Walker said repeatedly that the collective bargaining matter was fiscal. In modern contracts, you often have language in the agreement to exclude the headings from any interpretation. The Constitution would not have such language. So the “fiscal” in the heading would be included in any effort to parse the meaning.
But since the Supreme Court has a Republican majority, that would seem to cast a pall over challenges. But Supreme Court elections are on April 5, and the unions have a lot of support in the state. This bill passage (getting it through the Assembly is guaranteed) is subject to legal challenges not only on Constitutional but also on the basis of violating legislative procedures. And there is talk of a general strike, something which if you had asked me two months ago, I would have deemed to be pretty much impossible in America. They may be permissible if spontaneous, as in bottom up rather than called by union leadership.
Some details of the official version from the Washington Post:
Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber’s missing Democrats….
The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.
The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state’s open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate then convened within minutes and passed it without discussion or debate.
Spectators in the gallery screamed “You are cowards.”
Before the sudden votes, Democratic Sens. Bob Jauch said if Republicans “chose to ram this bill through in this fashion, it will be to their political peril. They’re changing the rules. They will inflame a very frustrated public.”
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Wisconsin legislature passed it separately.
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I never thought Republicans were serious for anything more than publicity stunt. There must be a catch to this one. Stay tuned.
There never was a catch. They are doing the bidding of the Koch Brothers and the other oligarchs(ie. Chamber of Commerce). Just look at all the other states attempting this same thing.
Have labor unions and their underworld connections harbored conservative obstruction to positive change, corruption, racism, and restraint of trade? Protectionism?
Will they change for the better?
50/50 chance?
Naaaah
!
April 5, THIS YEAR, there’s a state Supreme Court judicial election. This will determine whether Prosser, the pet judge of Scott Walker and the Koch Brothers, gets in, or whether a respectable judge named Kloppenburg does.
This seat controls the balance of the court between Walker cronies and real judges. This matters.
When I referred to Scott Walker as a fascist at the start of this fight, I did so advisedly: we see the method and purpose fit exactly to that measure now. The idea that any legislature has the authority to pass sweeping laws—read ‘decrees’—by a nominally single vote when they are opposed by the substantial majority of the population involved, as these measures are in Wisconsin, is blatantly fasicistic. The abuse of procedure to violate law is the same. Threatening illusions to ‘using the National Guard’ at the start of it all are right out of the same, foul bag. We see here what Rule By Money looks like: there _are_ no rules, only money, and those who value it above people.
Myself, I’m glad of this fight. The country needs to have it. The junta tactics used show the real agenda, and the majority is patently on the union and popular side, as well as virtually all of the citizen activism. (And just where _are_ those deluded or bribed teapotter collaborators these days? Kinda melted away, didn’t they . . . .) To obvious shills smirking about ‘I won, I won, the last election,’ what a puerile response. Say that again a year from now when there are eight fewer teeth in your legislative head. Elections come and go; principles remain. Legislatures pass bad or unsanctioned laws all the time, even when they are passed legally. Those laws are defied while nominally in effect, and repealed; many of the great acts of political growth are exactly of this nature. What we are going to see now is A REAL TEA PARTY. Not a phoney movement of cranks hired by billionaries but a natural resistance by the citizenry to unacceptable, grossly disrespectful, diktat. For you who worship unjust acts of ‘duly constituted authority,’ the Stamp Act was in fact duly passed by a sanctioned majority: it was wrong, and our country came from the result.
For those of you who support popular governance in Wisconsin, unlike what they must endure for a few more months, consider contributing to the recall of the Republican Senators in the Wisconsin Legislature who voted ‘yes’ to this unconsiconable, disgraceful measure. Find http://www.recalltherepublican8.com, and pitch in. I did.
If you are a public employee in Wisconsin . . . this is going to be among the most interesting summers of your life. Don’t let a good revolution go to waste, friends: not just ballot box tumbrels, but a _real_ progressive tax system to fix the real fiscal problems, and the environmental reform needed to keep your state liveable. Don’t just resist, overthrow the regime of the rich . . . .
hmmnnn..to decide whether it is nobler to send money or Washington State union bodies..?
I’ve been wondering about the “real tea party”. However, just saw a nice video on you tube of Scott Brown(recent tea party elected poster boy) begging one of the Koch brothers for money.
My question is the tea party just turning out to a wolf in sheeps clothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnkipn-gJK4
Sargent has a good point about the latest Scott Walker brazen move: WI GOP controls Governorship and the Legislature; yet they had to cheat and lie to get their bill “passed”.
http://wapo.st/hZDqVH
Moreover, with his absolute intransigence, Walker has only escalated the battle and raised the stakes.
Strike & Recall!…soon to be the most popular game in Wisconsin!
I live in Wisconsin and I am not a public sector worker; however, I find the actions taken by Governor Walker and the Senate disgusting. It is should now be obvious, to those that could not see it before, that this action has little to do with State budget repair and everything to do with ego and emulating his idol: Ronald Reagan(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k).
No Eric. Not EGO. Look up the accronym NWO. The lines are drawn. Unless you have a net worth exceeding $1 billion You are now a peasant. If you think the private sector whether as employee or small owner will be exempt, please post your reasoning here.
You will have no rights under the law which cannot be revoked.
You will own no property except by the sufferance of the ruling class.
You will submit your person and those of your family to any “lawfull” demands of the government.
All of your records and assets shall be subject to inspection by any “lawfull” designee of the government.
Any attempt to hide or disguise assets from relevant authorities shall result in immediate forfeiture of those assets and incarceration at a fedrally designated detention center to await trial for crimes against the state,
OMG, who knew “Uncle Sam” learned so much from “Uncle Joe”.
Wake up folks! You were born Americans, not Republicans and Democrats.
Sucks to lose an election, huh? Too bad! The (R) won the election and you just have to suck it up union thugs. Democracy in action DESPITE the childish games played by the (D)…..so childish. Even the R party conceded defeat with the Obamacare bill.
The solution to you woes is simple: win an election and give collective bargaining rights back!
We are witnessing the republic in action. I love America.
Bingo. Finally someone has the stones to play politics as tough as the Democrats. The AWOL 14 are returning tomorrow. Let the voting begin. Time for legislators to get out of the fetal position and fight for their beliefs. I don’t care if recalls happen or not, provided everything is done pursuant to the rule of law.
Shill,
It’s not politics. It’s illegal.
http://motherjones.tumblr.com/post/3760459855/this-is-how-democracy-works-in-wisconsin
Walker never ran on breaking unions. Polls in Wisconsin are running 65% in favor of the unions.
This is not democracy, it’s bait and switch.
Yep. Folks who hail this as “democracy” are people who don’t like democracy. They don’t want rational discourse or compromise that considers long-term consequences, they just want to get their way right now, regardless of the consequences.
If this is the kind of democracy these people want, they’re going to hate it when a majority of the people actually start voting. Reap what you sow.
Please. By that logic only issues discussed during campaigns can be the subject of legislative action. Our system is one of representation, not referendum. The only relevant poll is the election booth, and Walker’s opponents have every right to exercise their franchise at the appointed time. Good luck to them. Please cite the laws being broken by anyone other than the Democrats who fled the state and scoffed at the “call of the house” which compelled their return.
No candidate who is premeditating an action which a significant part of the people would consider radical has any right to keep it secret. That’s a lie of omission.
Not being a partisan shill like you, I say the same thing about Walker and Obama who, whatever his corporatist record, certainly did not run on a radical corporatist platform. (Of course, both told plenty of commission lies as well.)
We can see how broken your moral and democratic compasses are.
Hear ye,
here Naomi Klein (disaster capitalism) discusses Rethugli$$K$$an legislation allowing entire municipalities to be “privatized”..entire cities to be sold or GIVEN to corporations to run at taxpayer expense, which IS “The Shock
Doctrine-The Rise Of Disaster Capitalism”:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/9/naomi_klein_on_anti_union_bills
A “corporate Coup D’Etat”..
weren’t the “polls” running 60%+ against obamaocare,too? guess our voice didn’t matter in that one, either.
I don’t recall that the teabaggers ever accepted this reasoning when they were out screaming themselves hoarse over death panels and impeachment and imperial overreach. I never heard them say, “Oh well, we lost in ’08, and that’s just democracy, and I guess we’ll just have to suck it up.” As usual, IOKIYAR rules the day in the Republibag world.
Yeah that’s right, the (D) party LOST the election and now they leave the state. Talk about sore losers and subverting democracy.
I love relishing in a good win. A good win for the taxpayer, for the stsate of WI and for America. The only losers are the unions who wasted their union dues contributing their campaign contributions to the wrong party. Hahahahahah
You are in way over your head.
“Talk about sore losers and subverting democracy”
Let’s talk about that. Subverting democracy requires an overt act of commission. What the dems did was an act of omission. As you pointed out, they lost the election, they are in no position to “force” anything.
Once again let me remind you who controls the government in WI. Is not the (D) party.
Sorry folks, you lost the election. Fair and square.
Try again in 2012.
The reversal will happen well before 2012. Walker now just assured that the Repubs in the Senate will be recalled within the next few months.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer group of thugs.
You mean June, 2011, right?
Fantastic.
Start the tab now. How much is the wisc gov going to spend defending this in court?
He doesn’t care, he’s running for president.
..”He’s running for president”..
(like a good fundamentalist high school grad)
Although clearly anti-democratic and illegal, this was at least an honest, straight-up vote on union-busting, the obvious intent of the so-called budget bill in the first place. It is exactly what Obama wanted when he threw progressives and unions under the steamroller and quashed midterm Dem turnout with his briar patch strategy.
But this is ultimately a very good thing, and serf’s obnoxious victory jig is premature. First, for the “sanctity of contracts” gang it is not likely to survive the legal challenge; second, it puts everyone on notice that the Reps and this prez are now openly against working people; and third, it supercharges legal recall petitions. This anti-democratic action will finally awaken a critical mass of resistance, and this just may be the spark that triggers a general strike and an even larger revolt. It’s a great time to be alive.
The only anti-democratic action was the senators leaving the state to subvert democracy. The democrats lost the election which means they don’t get to set the agenda.
The republicans put a bill up for vote, and expected a full vote by the elected officials, and instead…well, it’s quite obvious who is anti-democratic this election.
Like serf said above, all the democrats need to do is take control of the senate, assembly and the governorship, and they can restore collective bargaining rights. This is how a democratic republic works. Maybe in 2012, maybe in 2020, maybe never. It’s besides the point. They know what they need to do to restore collective bargaining so they should thinking about 2012 today.
Subverting democracy requires an overt act of commission. What the dems did was an act of omission.
Law, and language are based on semantics.
Considering that you are advocating subversion of democracy, and fine with the result of that, you should be very concerned with semantics.
Hey Bob–Is a filibuster an acceptable legislatural move? What about secret holds, time-wasting motions for amendment? Are those procedural moves allowed, but withholding a quorum is denied?
You should really try to be more coherent in your reasoning.
I may be wrong, but IMO, the Dem boycott was within their constitutional rights, but the Reps action was an overt violation of Senate rules and the constitution.
As I said, though, I believe this is ultimately a good thing. It is straight-up union-busting, without the usual hypocrisy. Everyone is now out of the closet, and the nakedness is not pretty.
new poster, you appear to be ignorant of what it actually requires to live in, or function in, a democratic fashion.
You are all about ‘we win-you lose, so neener! neener!’
Do you really think that cops, prison guards, second and third grade teachers, and nurses are going to allow themselves to be treated by dirt because some legislators and a governor want to wipe their feet on public servants?
And at a time when not one single bankster or quant or CEO has gone to jail over fraudclosure and the Financial Meltdown?
The governor is damaging the working conditions of the nurse who may need to supply his meds at 2 am if he were ever to be in a car wreck and end up in hospital. And he’s damaging the pension and working conditions of the cops whose help he may need if he ever inadvertently runs a stop sign and hits another auto, or if he is the victim of someone else running a light or a stop sign.
You never know when the professionalism and decency of people who may seem like strangers to you today are the very people who might save your life, or the life of someone that you care about.
This governor is a fool.
I am fairly convinced of a couple of things. I can imagine that Mr. Obama’s life and or his family’s life, has been declared as expendable, particularly by the powers that be. He wouldn’t be the first.
He has made such traditional choices lately… from the uppermost echelons of the banking industry. Yes, he wants to get the country to fuggedaboutit and look ahead, as we must, but the global network is far too large and intricate for him to address in a vacuum.
Michael Moore’s comments on Rachel Maddow tonight were important, and the discussion about the deep well of funds from billionaires. He also discussed the wholesale offshoring of jobs, but just touched upon the offshoring of the money. He focussed on the richest 400 Amercians, but seemed to omit the thousands of banks, hedge funds and corporate entities, where the money never really did enter our system. It drained away, offshore, tax accounting magic, to caymans and all of the other locations in the world. And their gambling and buying off of regulations and employing lobbyists set us up for the collapse…that we have been handed the tab for.
Global problem. Treasure Islands by Nicholas Shaxon, available in UK now and in USA in April 2011. We actually need a peaceful and educated dissection of the tax haven issue – and we need global change. They will attempt to oppress and strip Americans of rights in back room corporate/political efforts, as they did tonight and as they have done in other countries.
They may try to co-opt the internet, but they forget that fairness and justice is ingrained into our culture. We must commit to supporting our fellow citizens, and not be turned against each other for any reasons – so they cannot bury the real issues.
We must wake each other from our stupor induced by ipods and TV and defend the freedoms our forefathers sacrificed everything for – for us and for our children.
‘We actually need a peaceful and educated dissection of the tax haven issue’
Hear hear. Next cab off the rank.
What we actually need are a few dozen Electro Magnetic Pulse (not human harming) bombs in the kiloton range and missiles to deliver them to the tax havens. It might seem radical but I think it would be far easier than actually getting the Elites to open them up by themselves.
Just make their money vanish, forever.
“AND THIS “pres”…much to the shame of Obama=corporate DLC
Dem…
after all, he’s done the exact same thing Walker has-he froze federal worker pay, WHILE extending Bushit tax cuts..
Semantics, semantics, semantics. The Republicans put up a bill, and rather than fight it procedurally, or filabuster, or even GASP! call a vote – they chose to run away.
Really, it’s quite as simple as that. It’s not even dirty politics, its a subversion of democracy. A bill was put up for vote, and instead of voting, they left chambers and ran out of state. Jeeez.
Denying a quorum is a procedural move. I suggest you educate yourself.
Splitting a bill to bypass quorum is just as legitimate a political move. Both sides are playing within the rules.
Sorry, bob, but “playing within the rules” doesn’t give you a free pass. There’s the letter of the law, and there’s the spirit of the law. It’s easy to fit within the letter of the law while violating it’s spirit. When you violate the spirit of this much, it will lead inevitably to ignoring the law altogether.
As soon as either “side” decides that it can pretend the other doesn’t exist and choose instead to wield naked power, you’re in for some real trouble.
U.S.A. R.I.P.
..let alone the FACT that this is not what “the governed” wanted, which will have extreme repercussions for Republi$$K$$ans..(“K-Streeters”)
They did not split the bill correctly. There is fiscal language in what they passed. So their procedural move was incorrect, arugably an abuse. See the details:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-13%20Budget/2011_03_09%20Modification%20to%20SS%20SB%2011_AB%2011.pdf
The Wisconsin State Journal agrees:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_8747fa04-4a74-11e0-8e6b-001cc4c03286.html
No one could explain Wednesday how the Senate managed to pass components of the original bill that seemed to have fiscal elements, including changes in pensions and benefits.
Fitzgerald’s spokesman, Andrew Welhouse, said Republicans were following the advice of their legal counsel, who told them which parts of the bill could be passed.
It does not pass muster that splitting a bill is any different than becoming an out of state fugitive to avoid quorum. Both are legal. Both will be held up by the courts, and both are political. Like it or not, it is all legitimate politics.
Obama didn’t campaign on bailouts, stimulus and obamacare. He bent the rules (hard) on all three, but the courts will not overturn any of that on the grounds of that he had omamacare “deemed”. It is politics, which is the system we have.
“It does not pass muster that splitting a bill is any different than becoming an out of state fugitive to avoid quorum.”
Fugitive? Really? And if they were so sure about the legality of splitting the bill, why did they already bring the lawyers in?
Definition of FUGITIVE
: running away or intending flight
They brought in the lawyers first because that was precisely what made it legal.
This really does bring the crux of the issue to the front.
Is it legal for the state to compel people to work?
And if the answer is yes, which you seem to believe, is it wise to remove any representation of those workers?
You seem to be advocating a system where the state can legally compel it’s work force to work, while stripping them of representation.
Libertarian™
Obama didn’t DO “bailouts”, nor did he pull Bush-Paulson bait and switch immediately after-having promised OVERSIGHT
of, and specifically WHAT they were to be used to accomplish:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?aid=15420&context=va
from Bartlett and Steele, twice double Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalists exposing bailouts=piracy.
We legally can compell elected representatives to serve, for drafted servicemen to fight, and for fathers to work to pay child support.
Please provide an example of an elected official who ran for office on an explicit union-busting platform. A number of polls have shown that a clear majority support the protesters, the unions, and the Democratic senators, and oppose the weakening of collective bargaining rights.
Bushitters didn’t run on “Project For A New American Century” disaster capitalism either:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_New_American_Century
Elections do indeed have consequences. After nearly three decades of so-called conservative rule,the voters clearly haven’t learned their lesson yet. Let’s see how they feel after a few years of Walker.
I don’t foresee Walker bringing businesses to the State of Wisconsin. Janesville, WI lost a GM plant and has the highest unemployment rate in the state. I do not forsee any recovery here under Walker.
The statewide attack on teachers and education will weaken one of the few benefits of living and doing business in this cold northern state. Without it we’ll be competing with the South for industry.
I am a Wisconsin teacher. I visited the capitol not as a protester but as a witness to democracy in action. For the record did I encounter a single thug at the capitol.
They say the Midwest’s largest export is young people. I’m afraid the brain drain brought us Scott Walker.
I hate it when Senators use parliamentary tricks to obstruct legislation.
Um, wait…
IDK about their motives Sufferin. I’d be more than willing to say they were playing politics (They are after all politicians??)
But, one also needs to consider a conceintious objector status for them.
Please read my post further up for my real pov.
Pardon my error. I meant to say I did not encounter a single thug at the capitol.
I’ve read that the students in Wisconsin have called for all high school students around the country to walk out of their classes at 2pm on Friday in support of the students and teachers of Wisconsin. If my highschool sons want to particpate, I’ll be supporting them 100%.
High school students in my town get out of school at 1:50, so that won’t work too well here.
Oh, the Republicans are probably celebrating like the Japanese did on December 8, 1941. I am sure sake bombs are being guzzled and high fives slapped around Koch Headquarters.
Meanwhile, the Sleeping Giant stirs, and mumbles WTF???
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
nice user name.
not very original or funny though.
what’s yer point in using it?
I have always been called “Squeeky.” Here is where “Fromm” comes from:
“Erich Fromm believed that freedom was an aspect of human nature that we either embrace or escape. That embracing our freedom of will was healthy, whereas escaping freedom through the use of escape mechanisms was the root of psychological conflicts. Fromm outlined three of the most common escape mechanisms: (1) Automaton conformity is changing one’s ideal self to conform to a perception of society’s preferred type of personality, losing one’s true self in the process. (2) Authoritarianism is giving control of oneself to another. By submitting one’s freedom to someone else, this act removes the freedom of choice almost entirely. (3) destructiveness is any process which attempts to eliminate others or the world as a whole, all to escape freedom. Fromm said that “the destruction of the world is the last, almost desperate attempt to save myself from being crushed by it.”
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
My father was a member of the jury that convicted the real Squeaky Fromme for attempting to assassinate president Gerald Ford. That’s where your name came from . . .
Helter Skelter . . . yadda, yadda, yadda
You have an interesting name also. I bet most people don’t know “Tao” is pronounced “Dow”, and miss the pun.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
That’s interesting -wonderful to be reminded that we have a justice system that works.
For the not-so-funny-department, lest we forget -a little Wiki on Squeeky Fromm:
the lao-tzu…more relevant than U.S. political “divide and conquer”, AND the 4th alternative Fromme doesn’t discuss=
“question authority”
Most of us don’t choose our names and we have to live with whatever associations they bring. Your comment reminds me that years ago I read most of Eric Fromm’s books. He is still worth reading.
so, naturally, if one is planning to publicize her Internet blog, and one’s name is Squeeky, SqueekyFromm is the logical handle. Its only natural that one would choose the name of a notoriously brutal creepy murdering cult member.
… and then claim the reference is to SqueekyFromm the eminent psychiatrist?
Give me a break.
Lol listen to the dem whine. Beat at their own games. Lol lol lol.
What a sweet comment from a nice person
Declaring victory before the war is over is a sign of arrogance. Remember “Mission Accomplished”?
There will be strikes, and Walker will get his butt handed to him next time. This is indecent, and I think Wisconsin voters will see it that way. Watch out for the backlash. Wisconsin union brothers and sisters, we are with you.
To those of you who claim that “elections have consequences”: yes, they do. But, contrary to RW beliefs supplemented by thirty years of dirty tricks, elections do not mean that the party in power gets to take over the process, ram through legislation, and stifle debate – all of which this Governor and his party members did during this process. They took votes in the middle of the night, allowed for no debate, and stacked the process in favor of themselves. (No bid contracts? I can just imagine what the RW would say if a Democratic governor did that.)
See, you all are so brainwashed by RW propaganda from Rush and Luntz and all the rest that you think modern America is a medieval fiefdom where the winners get to own the losers and control the entire process. That’s not what democracy looks like, although I suppose you should be forgiven for your ignorance, since your heroes do have trouble understanding the word “compromise.”
Nicely said.
Agree.
Having spent plenty of time in commission and council meetings over the years, I found that the Open Public Meetings Act in my own state (Washington) benefits everyone over the long run.
If you have to make a tough decision with a lot of public vitriol, being able to have people know about a meeting, come get answers – and/or vent – and provide testimony and new information was invaluable. (It’s a first-rate learning experience.)
It might interest some here to know that John Ehrlichman of Watergate notoriety was originally a solid advocate for Open Public Meetings and used his legal expertise to implement this in Washington state:
http://lawpublications.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1543&context=sulr
The new GOP is completely corrupt.
Fine. I respect your position. So i’m sure you were similarly irate when BO and the Dems rammed through Obamacare too………
“fundamentalists” are going for a different sort of “forgiveness”. Read Kevin Phillips’, “American Theocracy”..(Phillips was Nixon economist+editorialist), and he pegs it.
So what rock did all the ugly trolls crawl out from under (pardon my ending sentence with preposition)? Or should I say, what bridge did they come out from under? Are they on the Koch payroll?
The troll is one person (one IP address) using multiple handles to make it seem like a groundswell. Automatic grounds for banning.
Thank you. I wish there was more of that on blogs.
This very narrow definition is news to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Argh. Misread an important word in your comment, sorry.
The cockroaches always seem to crawl out of the woodwork when there is a neener-neener opportunity. Nice to know it is really just one roach running around the room making noises like a swarm.
Yves, thanks for turning on the light.
They have nothing constructive to say normally, since they have no ability to reason.
All they are capable of is gloating fornication with close relatives.
CIA and FBI are currently constructing huge computer banks to intercept and contradict, and troll..one in Utah. Hopefully, Yves is on it..
Really, I’m surprised it’s taken so long for talk of a General Strike to be introduced.
I’ve seen talk of it, and that’s all I’ve seen, lame talk.
One article I read said, “we can’t advocate a general strike because it’s illegal under Taft-Hartley, but we can ‘educate’ people about it, so that’s what we’re going to do.”
Well now, if I were a corporatist, I’d just be all a-tremble over the kind of revolutionary who’s so punctilious about Taft-Hartley. I suppose all their permits for these protests have been in order as well? Did they post a bond as well?
We sure wouldn’t want the the process, right? No capitalist union does.
They may be permissible if spontaneous, as in bottom up rather than called by union leadership.
I thought all wildcat strikes are illegal under T-H.
We sure don’t want to do anything that’s not permissible according to our betters.
Sorry, that was supposed to say:
We don’t want to upset the process…
General strike. Now we’re talking — or beginning to.
“I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant.”
Admiral Yamamoto said this after his naval armada attacked Pearl Harbor in December of 1941 only to learn that no formal declaration of war had been delivered beforehand. This made the attack not a legitimate act of war but a shameful, illegal, sneaking, cowardly deed in the eyes of any honorable person.
The jubilant Japanese pilots who had been dancing and cheering in victory stood silent and hung their heads in shame on receiving the news.
Admiral Yamamoto truly knew what they had done. He had lived in America, was educated in America, and knew the American character well. He said that he could think of nothing that could enrage Americans more than a sneak attack. There would be no forgiveness, no quarter, no holding back in their response.
Governor Walker, the GOP and even President Obama have made their contempt for working Americans plain, and their desire to destroy unions perfectly clear. President Obama’s “union-free” 2012 Democratic Convention in “right to work” Charlotte, North Carolina no longer seems the stroke of genius he and his Wall Street buddies thought it was last month.
The class war is out in the open. The sneaking methods of the corporate-owned politicians on the State and the Federal level is a matter of record. Both national political parties serve Wall Street, and Wall Street wants the American middle class crushed. Robbed. Broken and put under surveillance and constant control.
It is never a good idea to put an American’s back up against the wall, to take the last shred of dignity from a working parent, to take from Americans by cowardly deeds.
There is a dark side to American narcissism, American exceptionalism. It is innate to Americans that they do not abide tyrants, that they deserve better, that freedom is their birthright, their very bones. Nothing unites them more than overthrowing those who stab them in the back.
Ah you’re conveniently forgetting that the Japanese did not look like Americans in the 40’s. Now we’re to diverse to determine what exactly is an American.
I was never a real fan of Plato’s cave allegory, but the reference could never be more obvious here. This notion of Dems’ vs Republicans’ is strictly theatre. We are watching a marionette show while the real crime is happening backstage. I hope we wake up in time.
Dan states it-which is the reason people come here to learn..but direct action is the process of placing learning
in motion…
The government costs us too much. Hands down. The government does not “produce” it consumes. 3 decades of easy moeny have papered over the inconsistency between reality and the way we live. In the private sector, reality is playing out. In the public sector, reality can be covered up more easily, even as “wages” only get 2 to 4% increases, but the real value in a government job is the benefits, the sick leave, the lack of accountability, and the long term retirement benefits often skewed by massive overtime in the last few years. In Hawaii, IBEW union monopoly union workers are on strike, laughing at the fact that the island of Oahu suffered widespread outages as many families put up with no power. They laughed and used the outages to their negotiating advantages as some old people on not just fixed income but needing powered medical support went without power. Disgusting doesn’t even begin to describe it. The lowest paid IBEW worker makes about the same as the highest paid commercial worker (say $23.50 per hour compared to $25 per hour).
It isn’t government that caused economic meltdown troll..
though bought and sold government, by corporatocracy, created deregulatory legislation often written by lobbyists.
Kevin Phillips noted 450 “K-Street” lobbyists, end of Clinton era..over 40,000 after Bushit..
Yves, don’t use censorship/post baning if you if you have any other choice. I think your followers are great people. This poster’s efforts can do little except sharpen their focus and understanding of the Wisconsin law.
It’s her blog. If some limp-peckered right wing closet case is going to pretend to be a dozen people, then I support banning.
If that degenerate, inbred, morally depraved Atlas Shrugged-humper wants to come here and engage in constructive debate (as a single person), then we can talk about putting away the ban-hammer.
Multiple postings under different names is certainly grounds for striking those comments and banning the poster.
Any such poster’s intent is clearly to distort the conversation.
‘Multiple postings under different names is certainly grounds for striking those comments and banning the poster.’
Yeah. I can see Paul’s point – let it all hang out, sunshine the best disinfectant, sharpens the wits etc, but quite apart from the distortion angle, these threads are long enough as it is without having to wade through acres of astro-turf. You’d gain quantity at the expense of quality, and quality’s why we come.
When I ban someone, I normally let their pre-banning comments stand unless they are really vile.
From Mark Miller, Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader:
“In thirty minutes, 18 State Senators undid fifty years of civil rights in Wisconsin. Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten. Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people. We will join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government.”
From Yogi Berra, former American Major League Baseball catcher, outfielder, and manager:
“It ain’t over ’till it’s over.”
From Yogi Berra and Yves Smith: “In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are different.”
we’re about to see how different…
Beautiful, glorious stuff. Everyone one is happy in their hatred now. The Republicans punched the public unions in the belly, and the Democrats are overjoyed to be manning the ramparts and fighting for the famously oppressed public servant. And Mike Moore says its war now! (Better hit the gym before you hit the streets!) And I’m sure the Senators will be racing back to Madison to claim glory and inhale the pungent smell of napalm in the morning. Could it have ended any other way? What a wonderful, pathetic American pageant. Subversion of representative government, the flee party vs the tea party, righteous protest, overreaching and underhandedness. Why did it have to end?
Bobo, huh?. Nice name.
Got your motley on for the show?
Plutarchy
that is all…
gs_
It is fair to disagree with the law, but it is disingenuous to disagree with either the politics of working around the quorum boycott, or to claim it is illegal to use the rules accorded to both parties.
Politics is hardball, it these politicians have voters behind them.
I felt the same way when the democrats left wisconsin.
Hey, Bob. Thanks for stopping by to gloat. Hope you live long enough to realize you are backing the wrong horse.
But, Rex…they are the chosen people….god said so.
I was neither gloating, nor backing the wrong horse. I was making a case about selective sensitivity over the use of legislative rules. In my mind both sides did their politics correctly.
OK, I misread your intent.
Haha, how come we never heard “Elections have consequences” during the Obamacare debate?
Right wing hypocrisy. I can’t stand lefty whining, but the right wing idea of “reasoning” is an offense against sanity.
Uhh, we did hear that elections have consequences during the Obamacare debacle. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid decided the 2008 election results were a national mandate for healthcare reform and thus ramrodded through whatever they could. Remember the “we have to pass the bill to know what is in the bill” and all that garbage? The horse trading pork barrel projects to get to 60 votes? How soon history is forgotten/re-written.
The majority of posters to this blog do not find moral sanctity in any of the political parties.
Paul,
I like Bernie Sanders…
Yeah, one has to like Mr. Sanders. But then I respected Mr. Bidden at one time also??
Having little knowlege of US politics can impair foriegners views.
It would seem to me that if those Wisconsin democrats return now, that would be confirmation of the theatrical nature of this whole effort.
Uhh, we did hear that elections have consequences during the Obamacare debacle.
Really? All I heard was lies about death panels. I guess you have your eye on the ball better than I did.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid decided the 2008 election results were a national mandate for healthcare reform and thus ramrodded through whatever they could.
It was a mandate. The nation gave both houses and the executive to the Democrats in a landslide to fix the mess NeoCons had made. The only problem was that the health care and financial special interests sabotaged the will of the people after the election. Kind of like what’s happening in Wisconsin.
Remember the “we have to pass the bill to know what is in the bill” and all that garbage?
No. I remember Republican bellyaching about how long the text of the bill was. Your job is to read some stuff and pull a lever. Shut up and do your job.
The horse trading pork barrel projects to get to 60 votes?
Exactly — why is the party of fiscal responsibility always getting its beak wet? Liars and hypocrites.
How soon history is forgotten/re-written.
Indeed.
It was a mandate. The nation gave both houses and the executive to the Democrats in a landslide to fix the mess NeoCons had made.
Yes.
The only problem was that the health care and financial special interests sabotaged the will of the people after the election.
No. The record proves that Obama never had any intention to honor his mandate. His record as a flunkey of the insurance rackets goes back to his Illinois days, while anyone who paid attention to his association with Rubin and his whipping for the TARP, instead of to his empty lying campaign rhetoric, would have predicted he was intending to dedicate his presidency to serving Wall Street, which is exaclty what he’s done.
Kind of like what’s happening in Wisconsin.
Exactly. Obama and Walker are one and the same.
Horse trading to get 60 votes? Oh, if only that were true. Dirty Harry needed to horse trade to get to 50! Remember? It was passed under budget reconciliation……in a infrequently used maneuver designed to avoid the normal process. Polls were and still are 60+% against Obamacare. The parallels are delicious. The Dems paid for it last November….and if the WI Reps pay for it at the polls, so be it. That’s how the game is played.
Knighttwice – If you gave me the resources the Republicans brought to bear in terms of misinformation, astroturfing and propaganda, I could get Puppy and Kitten disapprovals over 50% too.
And it’s not like Obama made any secret of health care reform when he ran for office. In fact, his platform was much more liberal when he was campaigning. One of the main issues people have with Walker is that nobody knew this was coming and a lot of people would have voted for the other guy (Barrett?) had they known Walker would be this extreme.
Also, say what you will about reconciliation, but it’s a damn sight fairer than holding a no-warning 1AM vote for 19 seconds.
Reading Ganz, ancient organizer whom Obama hired to DO “grassroots” organizing, Obama grassroots were thrown under the bus as soon as he was elected. Article in “The Nation”. Obama hasn’t earned public support either..far too bought and sold, as is Walker.
That whole health care legislation fiasco revealed the problems with Senate rules, particularly the filibuster.
It also revealed the problem of a national legislative body that was set up in 1776, before sewer and sanitation systems, far before it became clear that America’s population distribution would be vastly skewed.
In the case of health care, the Senate required 60 votes because of it’s arcane rules.
About 60% of the US population resides in about 10 states — which translates to 20 Senators’ worth of population.
Alaska has fewer than 800,000 residents, and some natural resources (oil, gas, fisheries, tourism).
California has 34,000,000 residents — plus ports, defense industries, agriculture, and software; it’s the biggest economic dynamo in the US.
What we have in the US is the last 1/4 inch of the tail wagging a very big dog.
We have this in our energy policies, our financial rules, our banking policies, and our telecom policies. This is a system built on asymmetries that appear to have grown to a point that they are no longer socially sustainable.
No matter what the trolls around here would prefer to think.
Mr. Brewcrew,
WHAT??? HUH?? (Sorry, a little deaf here.)
I may have missed some of that mandate part of the health care debate because my ears were ringing from people yelling DEATH PANELS! and SOCIALISM! and some unidentifiable rants by little, fat, gray-haired guys in local meetings.
Glad we are able to see a reasonable discourse taking place, this time, in the Wisconsin thing.
As I said earlier in the thread (I don’t usually repeat myself but the thread is getting long):
They did not split the bill correctly. There is fiscal language in what they passed. So their procedural move was incorrect, arugably an abuse. See the details:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-13%20Budget/2011_03_09%20Modification%20to%20SS%20SB%2011_AB%2011.pdf
The Wisconsin State Journal agrees:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_8747fa04-4a74-11e0-8e6b-001cc4c03286.html
No one could explain Wednesday how the Senate managed to pass components of the original bill that seemed to have fiscal elements, including changes in pensions and benefits.
Fitzgerald’s spokesman, Andrew Welhouse, said Republicans were following the advice of their legal counsel, who told them which parts of the bill could be passed.
And not to repeat myself, but no court will touch it. They won quorum. Both sides fought hard and made important points in our democracy.
Bob,
Suits are being readied. You are over your head on this one.
Perhaps I am over my head, but preparing suits is quite different than courts weighing in on legislators procedural practices. There is a long history of courts being loathe to cross that line.
Yves –
As far as I can tell, they’re (GOP SS’s) construing “fiscal” to mean anything that requires an appropriation, i.e., new spending. Since the split-off portion of the bill only pertains to spending cuts and other non-financial worker’s rights issues, it can be classified as non-fiscal. We’ll see if that holds up.
Congratulations, it’s a great day to be a billionaire in America!
To Knighttwice, serf ceorl, new poster, Diana and all Koch shills: David Koch sends thousands of roses and lots of chocolate truffles. Godiva, and oysters in the half-shell.
David Koch, billionaire [overheard after his Senate bill passed in Wisconsin] I’m just a happy camper! Rockin’ and a-rollin’!
The most unfortunate take away from all of this, is that we do not know how the future will play out. The republicans are acting out of a long standing movement of reacquiring power that they had before the Great Depression. One of the key indexes will be the amount of money spent on internal security. The problem for the United States now that is the sole superpower, has been and will continue to be for quite some time, NOT any external threat since there are NOT any. It is the massive population that is well educated, well informed and will networked due to the internet. Reuters has just reported that the announced Chinese government budget has increased the amount for internal security, surpassing the military spending for the first time. Egypt has been exposed for staffing 1.7 million people for internal security, in a nation of 80 million. That is a better than most American school districts teacher to student ratio. And of course, America has been driven to paranoid extremism over terrorists who have not been able to do much of anything for almost 10 years, but we are still under emergency federal security measures, Homeland Security initiatives, the documented formal planning and implementation for universal public surveillance of all communication, of all citizens, as well as other critical police state categorization of citizens as terrorists, if they protest, convene meetings, publicly oppose state or national policies, or blog on sites like this. What nations are spending more money on is not military, as much as internal security. War is not something that can settle too much anymore, but instability, becoming a failed state, being branded as too corrupt, with civil unrest, is the kiss of death. The world is full of more than enough well educated citizens who know full well that this can not end well for them unless there a radical change. What will trigger the revolution, the final battle for control of the federal government in the USA, is not known by anyone. But the premature Wisconsin Putsch will reveal how decoupled the republicans are from the citizenry. Washington is full of lala land behavior that would be entertaining if not for the real world consequences. What may come from this is the people pushing back. The purge that is coming to the democratic party will shock the tea party. If the dems don’t get behind the rising anger of working America, they will be thrown out. We saw the militant right wing do it, and it seems the dems will fold just as easily if they are not willing to fight for expanding the New Deal and the Great Society for the 21st and stop worrying about pushing people around once they have power. If the dems don’t use their power, I know plenty of people who can’t wait to.
Wake me when people protest directly in front of the castles of high finance.
Skippy…hit them where it hurts…polies are just a distraction…you have the collective right to whine, whinge and stop your feet.
For both sides, tonight is not the end.
It’s not even the beginning of the end.
But perhaps it’s the end of the beginning.
As the non-bipartisan Zen master in Fred Wilson’s War said, We’ll see.
It would be nice if you all would Dems and union shovel leaners would stop referring to yourselfs as the working class. As if you are the only workers in the state. It’s clear you’re lead to believe that you are imperative to the operation of the state and that things would simply crumble without you. The fact is that you unions have had a slow choke hold on the entire U.S. Forcing sweetheart deals through extorsion and threats of strikes has slowly killed this country. Your demands forced company after company to flee trying to stay viable. The true working class are the ones like me who pay 100% of their pension. We pay for all of our insurance, I’m self employed paying double the fica in tax no sick days, no paid vacations, no early retirement with double dipping. I’m the working class and on top of all that I pay for you state blood sucking employees. Sure you’re all stepping forward ready to accept the concessions now , now that we’ve turned the lights on and you’re standing there with your hands in the cookie jar. That’s real big of you. To late the Rep. are here now and Walker is calling in the marker. No more! No more administrative leaves, $159,000 bus drivers, $90,000 librarians, the hits keep coming. Here’s a novel idea do a honest days work get an honest days pay and sleep with a clear conscience for once. Protect democracy the fugitive 14 put a halt to it. Don’t get privilge and rights mixed up and take a good look at what is fair. It doesn’t feel like that when someone steps in and takes you ball away. So you cry about how Walker just took your ball away “how dare him” problem is the ball has my name on it. Unions, welcome to the working class.
Excellent breakdown of the issues at hand.
“So you cry about how Walker just took your ball away “how dare him” problem is the ball has my name on it.”
More balls for everyone.
Koch brand balls…made in china or indo…but he keeps the earnings (your toil) regardless…of which, will soon, be used to own your power, water, food and air?
Skippy…billionaires or unions…will the real bad guys please stand up!
I think we are finally getting somewhere. Balls.
The koch teabagers are very proud of their balls, they constantly drag them across the face of America. This is clearly a misallocation of testicular fortitude. There are real people who need these balls.
End the ball abuse.
Personally me avoids small meats, but, in this case I might have a chew.
For bob>>>>>>some man on the radio, tell me to buy some useless information, to fire my imagination>>>>I can’t get [no staisfaction]>>>>girlie action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o
Skippy…intestinal fortitude don’t fail me now!
PS. can’t help myself global fracas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o
No more $300,000,000 Golden parachutes for these damn teachers. They should go one step further and confiscate their summer homes in the Hamptons and their yachts. The students should be given the multi-million dollar stock options these teachers are always getting. Not to mention all those free junkets jets and vacations.
Indeed. Davos was simply infested with teachers this year.
pooch
First, your assertion that those that may be posting here and are against walker are, democrats is most likely false. In fact i am not a democrat and I am sure many others here are not either.
Second, amazing you forcefully use the word FACT in the context of your diatribe rant. When, IN FACT, it is riddled with fallacies and half truths.
Like most of what I have seen published in the last month or so, we see a never ending barrage of large salary figures thrown around, and no one questions them. THE FACT, of the matter is. Milwaukee county did have bus drivers making 6 figures, but, only after they worked a ridiculous amount of overtime. So, dropping figures trying to imply someones base salary to drive a bus is 159k is false, base salary is 50k. I also have never heard of a librarian making a base salary of 90k. They either are not JUST a librarian, or, worked some extensive amount of overtime, or you are trying to include fringe benefits.
Thirdly, I guess in your world, you feel everyone should be an independent contractor or small business owner like yourself. Not all of Americas labor pool is in a position to be and independent contractor. However, they are working on that, another decade of this and everyone will be working for 10-12 bucks an hour and wont have health insurance.
“The fact is that you unions have had a slow choke hold on the entire U.S. Forcing sweetheart deals through extorsion and threats of strikes has slowly killed this country. Your demands forced company after company to flee trying to stay viable.”
Here is a FACT Pooch, THEY (companies) LEAVE OR SEEK CHEAPER LABOR ANYWAY, irregardless as to whether there is a union in place. This fallacy, you, and others assert, persists in the face of a privatized workforce that is only 6%. By and large wages have been stagnant for, arguably 30 years. Yet, efficiency and profitability have increased, even for those US based manufacturing plants.
I have seen it up close and personal, as, even medium size companies have squeezed U.S. based suppliers to razor thin margins (employees of said suppliers making min wage and non union). When they have squeezed the last drop of blood out of the supplier the usually fail. These are all the small businesses that failed in the last 2 years. They are not coming back.
[I could write a whole article on why the us supplier (small company) is dead and not coming back, but that is an article for another day]
Lastly, your whole thesis boils down to this: Their glass of beer is full and mine is half empty, that’s not fair.
Well, you might want to see if the person dispensing or making the beer can get you more, instead of trying to take it out of someones glass.
This whole supposed “deficit” debate is off the rails, as somehow, the average American has been made the scapegoat of the effin’ financial crisis.
Brilliant!
The disparities between pvt vs public workers found in this publication by AEI hardly constitute the figures thrown around in the MSM these days. In any event, as so many others here have pointed out. This isn’t even the central issue at hand. However, I thought I would post the link for you and others.
http://www.american.com/archive/2010/october/government-employees-still-overpaid
Excellent. (Screw the) Pooch trips easily over the divide-and-conquer tactic of the austerians and impales himself in the process. His is the unenlightened self-interest of ECONNED, a narrow egoic world that can’t comprehend that a dynamic economy —and his own welfare—depends on a balance of power, a level playing field of egalitarian opportunity and a strong middle class—citizens, not consumers, with means and creative imagination.
It is amazing that dupes like Pooch still quaver and rail against the monstrous spectre of unions, when as you note correctly, they are now merely a hollow, fractional shadow of their pre-reaganomics reach. Scapegoating unions is a perfect distraction from the embezzlers of Wall Street and feudal lords like the Kochs.
I would like more info on the $159,000 bus driver.
Of course it would “remove an obstacle” for restructuring.
But that should be on an individual loan by loan basis, not a “remove all HEs” basis.
If I am the investor on that HE loan, I invested in it based on the security. Universally removing that security harms me(whether I am an idividual, investment group or the bank itself). Hey, if I invested in a loser, I will take my medicine. But I am not going to lose on winning deals because it sounds good and/or becuase the minority of such deals need to be restructured.
This must be ‘Joe the Plumber’ (hero of American industrial might) in mufti.
It is truly sad, and I feel bad about the fact that Governor Walker now owns one of his balls (or the only one?)
I’ve personally never had much love for unions, none have ever benifited me directly, and a couple have harmed me. However, we need the right of free association to validate democracy.
Like many others, I recognise that the Wisconsin situation is less about unions and budgets than about spreading division amoung the people to quell disent.
“Like many others, I recognise that the Wisconsin situation is less about unions and budgets than about spreading division amoung the people to quell disent.”
Huh? How did you get there? What about squashing unions that are the biggest non-corporate funding of elections. And did you notice the part of the original bill that gave the right of non-bid selling off infrastructure to private enterprise? Just distractions from the real intent?
I can’t even imagine how this thing spreads division or how that would quell dissent. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
First, I have two words for public workers in WI, General Strike. Who cares if its illegal, who will make the arrests if the Police strike along with the rest of public employees. People will go to jail, he will try to fire a bunch of people, but to be honest there isn’t much left to lose once collective bargaining is gone. If labor doesn’t strike after losing the right to collectively bargain, then what will they strike over? I am not saying this from a position of privilege either, I was a non-tenured public high school math and physics teacher in NJ that got laid off last year as a result of that fat pig of a fascist Chris Christie.
Good job on Troll Patrol, Yves. I am all for people voicing their opinions, but most of the right wing trolls are hired hands.
That said, the trolls do bring up an interesting misconception, namely that voting=democracy. What is so laughable about it, is that Mubarak also ‘won’ the 2005 election, with 89% of the ‘vote’. The (s)elections in the US are just as corrupt and authoritarian as the (s)elections in Egypt, its just not as overt. There are so many filters that even if you had the money, you would still have to pass through in order to get time on the air waves which are corporate owned, and that includes NPR.
First, I have two words for public workers in WI, General Strike. Who cares if its illegal.
Exactly. You have to wonder about anyone who still claims not to realize that this is total class war, and the enemy’s goal is to steal literally everything.
If you already have enraged people in the streets, then there’s nothing to be gained by still trembling before the “rules” which we know the enemy will never abide by anyway.
The truth is stark: We can hang together or all hang alone.
Scotty’s victory lap is up at the WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576190260787805984.html
Video of the moment in question:
http://motherjones.tumblr.com/post/3760459855/this-is-how-democracy-works-in-wisconsin
Normally, I read Naked Capitalism to learn how the financial sausage gets made in New York. Having been raised in Wisconsin, I’m flattered that Ms. Smith has chosen to shine her spotlight on flyover land. Many thanks!
Kinda funny that someone (some company? 527?) thinks this will be won via Astroturf blog comments. Rather, it is a question of whether actual Wisconsin citizens are willing to show up at the capitol, sign recall petitions, vote in judicial elections, etc. Based on the reactions of normally weakly political friends & family back home, serf ceorl and his friends/sockpuppets are in for a genuine fight. Fair & square, as they say.
Nice post.
Thanks for your perspective as a native son. Hope your kin and former neighbors can dig in and prevail over this power grab.
So the republicans chose a clearly illegal manouver to vote on a single issue: stripping power from the people.
And some very sorry people support that…
Why was there a carve-out for police and firefighters? Do these sorry people support that?
Support unions or not, I’d rather die fighting for the rights of others than to live and take their rights away.
Ignore the cowards. Fight for your rights, and the rights of others. There’s going to be hell to pay in WI. The cowards are going to lose their representation in the recall.
That’s what they get for being cowards.
Yves,
Thanks for highlighting Wisconsin.
I agree with your “And there is talk of a general strike, something which if you had asked me two months ago, I would have deemed to be pretty much impossible in America.”
NC readers might also like to head over to crookedtimber if they’re interested in what’s transpiring on the ground in Madison. One of CT’s regular bloggers is a UW professor, and has been doing a fine job of coverage; commenters are serious and committed (like NC’s!).
The Wisconsin State Journal has a link to the .pdf of the entire budget repair bill. It’s 1345 pages long, but there’s nothing like resorting to the primary sources: on p. 955, “Section 2407. 111.70 (3m) of the statutes is repealed.” (on collective bargaining) Six words eradicating sixty years’ rights.
It’s kind of strange to read NakedCapitalism for quite a few years and suddenly to be confronted with an opion by the authort of the blog that completely falls out of line. At least, that is my perception.
Years of unabated fight against the system, pointing out flaws, lies and unhappy statistics: the bare truth and now this. Siding with ‘workers’ because union rights are under attack. Although I do feel sorry for workers, Yves’ arguments do not touch the flaws, lies and unhappy statistics, so effectively barring the bare truth:
1. why should taxpayers bear the costs of higher pays to workers due to a system of unions? It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul (and Yves siding with Paul). It is mighty convenient to leave that equation out of the discussion.
2. Many States and Munis are dead broke. Even if Unions win their round (through extortion ahem, bargaining), there is no money left to pay (eehm borrow). It will end, period, including the union workers’ jobs. Workers needs jobs and affordable living, not unions to steal from non-unionized workers/taxpayers through their favorite politician.
I won’t even touch the actions of the Democrats not showing up to do their public job. If you choose to stay away, others will go forth with their plans. No law can put aside this simple piece of logic. Only lies and stupid logic need laws.
I am happy that other bloggers stay the course in the Wisconsin-matter, focussing on the truth (like the plane numbers and the fact that there is simple extortion involved). That’s what made them big (see Mish Shedlock). I hope Yves will contemplate this matter again likewise.
Otherwise, great fan of this blog and the work Yves does exposing the – other – truth.
1. Why should taxpayers bear the cost of bailing out failed financial services when they were *fraudulently stupid* and will be sucking off Peter and Paul long after they are dead.
2. Many States and Munis are dead broke after being ripped off by said fraudsters whom now say, its mine…go fish, in fact how about you suck off the last remaining citizens that have a buck or two, like we do.
Skippy…fixed.
Democraatus said,
It’s kind of strange to read NakedCapitalism for quite a few years and suddenly to be confronted with an opion by the authort of the blog that completely falls out of line.
I don’t remember seeing postings before this one, but even if you are a shill, it seems you took the time to make a rational post. I don’t think Yves did much except point out that Walker’s argument from the beginning claimed it was all fiscal until now, when everything fiscal was (allegedly) stripped out so the kill the unions part could be voted through under new rules. I ask, is that vindictive, ironic, or just showing true colors?
Dem: 1. why should taxpayers bear the costs of higher pays to workers due to a system of unions? It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul (and Yves siding with Paul). It is mighty convenient to leave that equation out of the discussion.
I would suggest that in this scenario, Peter is on the side of the elite who deliberately kicked the economy in the crotch and created the fiscal crises that is now giving the opportunity to curb stomp Paul. Where was your outrage when taxpayers were handing over huge sums to save Peter’s bacon? That some of us would think Peter is a scape goat should not be that hard to grasp.
Dem: 2. Many States and Munis are dead broke. Even if Unions win their round (through extortion ahem, bargaining), there is no money left to pay (eehm borrow). It will end, period, including the union workers’ jobs. Workers needs jobs and affordable living, not unions to steal from non-unionized workers/taxpayers through their favorite politician.
Yada, Yada. See number (1). If the banksters and mega-corporations hadn’t crashed the economy the states wouldn’t be dead broke. They are the evil in this story and they are getting away scott free. The crap that these big guys created is now being used as an excuse to beat down one of the few barriers to total domination. For jobs and affordable living, we need to rein in the scumbags on top who are skimming more than their share out of every basic aspect of human existence. Unions may sometimes over reach, but they are trivial compared to the uber mensch side.
Dem: I am happy that other bloggers stay the course in the Wisconsin-matter, focussing on the truth (like the plane [SIC] numbers and the fact that there is simple extortion involved).
Extortion is not required when you own the system. Walker has given every indication that he believes he owns his part of the system. You seem to say, “The truth shall set us free.” Nice. But I’m not sure you own the truth. I guess it is too early to bring back, “Arbeit macht frei.”
“Peter is a scape goat”
Should be Paul is a scape goat. I knew I’d lose track of that metaphor.
Rex, I agree with you…..the banks destroyed the economy and devastated states’ budgets. But what would you have governors do. Please explain the legal mechanism to get the banks to fill the states gaping fiscal holes. I’m all ears, but I don’t see it…especially when Obama is the banks best friend
Umm. The town bully comes by and kicks down the sand castle you’ve been building for hours. What do you do? Go kick down the smaller castle of the guy next to you?
I would have the Governors act like they were really trying to find the best solutions for their state citizens. In this case I see an egotistical asshole on a crusade that he seems to think god sent him for. A lapdog of the ubermeisters. A scumsucker. In an earlier period — a brownshirt.
I know I shouldn’t admit this in public, but I just look at Walker and he makes my skin crawl. I don’t get that reaction very often, but when I do, I have rarely been wrong in trying to exclude someone like that from affecting my environment. Unfortunately, for me and Wisconsin, their earlier mistake in voting makes that difficult for now.
No ideas in your reply to assess the banks to help the state budgets. No surprise. I can’t think of one either.
To knighttwice,
No surprise you are stuck on moving the conversation away from the scumbaggery of using the financial crunch to squash the unions — which happen to be one of the few remaining obstacles to total control by the ubers.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Two knights don’t make it day.
Budgets have realities. If revenues are less than expenses, you either need to raise revenues or cuts expenses. Walker has chosen the latter. What’s your solution? Revolution?
Could come to that.
knighttwice said: “Budgets have realities. If revenues are less than expenses, you either need to raise revenues or cuts expenses. Walker has chosen the latter. What’s your solution? Revolution?”
Walker has chosen the latter (cut expenses)? And he’s done nothing on the revenue side?
Why don’t you regale us with more half-truths and outright lies?
Funny how in your perverse worldview you completely blinker out what Walker has done to the revenue side, the fact he has been handing out tax breaks to corporations like candy since he took office.
DownSouth,
Thanks for being better informed than myself and taking the high road in responses.
I’ve learned a lot from your posts but will never get to your level of knowledge on this stuff. Seems we agree on the light side versus the dark side on this one.
Rex said: “The crap that these big guys created is now being used as an excuse to beat down one of the few barriers to total domination.”
Exactly! I’ve seem this same movie play out in Latin America dozens of times over the past 40 years. To use the words of Naiomi Klein, this is pure “shock doctrine,” now playing at a theater near you.
Democraatus writes: ‘Many States and Munis are dead broke … there is no money left … It will end, period, including the union workers’ jobs. Workers needs jobs and affordable living, not unions to steal from non-unionized workers/taxpayers through their favorite politician.’
Rising productivity has been a fact of the U.S. economy for more than three decades. And yet the top 10 percent have captured 50 percent of the income gains of the past forty years.
Indeed, the top 1 percent gained more than all the bottom 50 percent. Real median earnings per hour in the US have hardly increased since 1966. Why would they, when the rich have bought the politicians who in turn have given the rich ever lower taxation and ever more favorable conditions for rentier capitalism?
That, above all, is why there is now “no more money.” So wake up.
I once watched erstwhile Teamster president Jackie Presser and a retinue of meaty Italian-American gentlemen ride a limousine convoy down to Monterey to play golf. So I am no unalloyed fan of unions. But there really is no reason why anybody should give up any more wealth to the kleptocracy that Governor Walker services. At this point, I’ll support almost anybody who fights back, and if it’s a teacher’s union in Wisconsin — well, a teacher’s union is a fine thing.
Well said.
Mark P. said: “Rising productivity has been a fact of the U.S. economy for more than three decades. And yet the top 10 percent have captured 50 percent of the income gains of the past forty years.”
50%???
I think the top 10% have captured more than 100% of income gains since 1979. If we look at how the bottom 80% have fared (scroll down to the graph titled “Winners Take All: Change in Share of Income” here, we see that the bottom 80% of earners actually take home a smaller part of the national income pie than they did in 1979.
Of course how the income pie gets split is just half the story. The other is who pays the taxes.
A couple of weeks ago the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation released a report, which can be found here, called “PRESENT LAW AND HISTORICAL OVERVIEW
OF THE FEDERAL TAX SYSTEM.”
The single most important fact revealed by the report, the one that just screams at the top of its lungs to be heard, was this:
In 1952, the year I was born, 32.1% of federal receipts were paid by corporations. In 2009, the last year that data was available, corporations paid only 6.6% of federal receipts.
Corporations are little more than a tax avoidance scam for the richest of Americans. The rich put their money into corporations where the income that capital generates is all but tax-free. Then when the rich want to spend the money, they sell the corporation (or their share of it) and pay only capital gains tax, currently 15%. If the income were to be taxed as it comes in, they would pay the normal income tax rate, currently 35%. So by this little sleight of hand, the rich reduce their tax burden by half.
While I agree with your overall point, using 1952 and 2009 is more than a little disingenuous. Pre-tax earnings were in the toilet in 2009.
Should corporations pay more? I would love the answer to be Yes. Problem is that it could just exacerbate off-shoring without other tax-trapping tactics.
The broader question is, do we spend too little? I think both parties agree that the real federal debt is in the $70+ trillions. Not sure revenues can get us there, but I hear you about corporate taxes.
The USA taken as a whole has never been wealthier than it is now, has it?
Yet so many seem to feel so poor, and poorly.
Strange, how people’s emotions can play so large a role in how they feel as to their material fortunes.
knighttwice said: “Should corporations pay more? I would love the answer to be Yes.”
Bullshit! You are a 24 ct. corporate shill, which comes through loud and clear in your very next sentence: “Problem is that it could just exacerbate off-shoring without other tax-trapping tactics.”
One thing about it, you’ve got all the right-wing reactionary talking points down pat, which should throw red flags up all over the place.
Ha! I’m a “corporate shill” but on other topics I call for the top 4 banks to write-off all of their $400B in HELOC exposure and for their executives to be jailed for fraud. Gee, I’m really good at disguising my “shill-ness”. You are a typical liberal, intolerant of views that do not conforms to yours…and resort to name calling instead of substantive debate. Oh well…
Knighttwice – pre-tax earnings were in the toilet, but so was taxable income for citizens. 2009 was hard on both people and corporations, and is probably not a horridly bad year to use.
Michael Moore, in his soeech in Madison a few days ago, said that the richest 400 people in America control as much wealth as the bottom 155 million. He didn’t quote a source, that I heard, but the reported proportion actually are incredibly skewed.
Check out the US’ GINI score lately, or look at:
http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-about-who-has-money/
Do a RESET, Not a RECALL!
Everyone should take a real hard look at that graph. The “actual” line at the top shows plainly that the bottom 40% or, @140 million Americans combined, have no measurable wealth on the scale. That is a disgusting statistic! Made even more disgusting by those who would promote conflict between the bottom 40% and the second 40%. If the bottom 80% were divided equally the top 20% would still own 85% of the wealth, but then you would have 280 million poor in America, instead of only 140 million poor.
I don’t think anyone (except the Banksters) would consider that to be an improvement. A Recall will not lead to any REAL Change. Recent events should have shown everyone that elections are similar to changing masks at a costume party.
Democraatus,
I think you missed the point. The WI star chamber just voted in secret to take peoples rights away.
Or… not everybody’s rights, they (the republicans) made sure to carve out exemptions for those that would give them trouble.
You put the blame of budget shortfalls on union workers while seemingly giving a free ride to corporations that do not pay ANY taxes, such as GE, and BofA.
How about the US military? It spends $1-million for every dollar the Taliban spends, and there’s no end in sight for the war. Are we, or are we not forced to pay for such ineptude? That’s $100 billion above the $700 billion annual military budget, and you are worried about teachers getting benefits.
Please… get some sense.
I’ve seen 2 arguments so far:
1. the banks did it (wrecked the economy) and must pay
2. the rich get richer (and will benefit from Walker’s actions)
I have seen nothing that addresses the simple fact that, ultimately, taxpayers (Peter) pay for services rendered by union workers for artificial higher prices than market prices (Paul). Most taxpayers are not part of the 1% top richest. They (including you and I) pay more so that Paul (the union worker, heavily in the grasps of the unions) can get more pay from the system.
It’s not rich versus poor. It’s not the banksters against the people. This is about gaming the system to have Paul extort more money from the system via his willing politician than he pays as Peter, the taxpayer. It’s simple extortion.
Ultimately, that would bring the end of democracy.
Calling Walker a brown shirt is rather naïve thinking about how he actually restores freedom. The freedom not to pay for wages higher than market prices. The freedom not having to associate with a union to get a type of job.
Freedom. Wasn’t that what the USA was all about?
And for the banks (free to Jesse’s café): there can be no economic recovery until the banks are restrained and the financial system is reformed. If not, facism will be our destiny. Point your actions at the banks instead of Walker: let them fail.
“Calling Walker a brown shirt is rather naïve thinking about how he actually restores freedom.”
HaHaha hahahaha! Thanks for the comic relief.
I didn’t even quote the rest of that preposterous paragraph.
You guys need to get better shills.
Democraatus,
You and knighttwice’s arguments only make sense in a defactualized world. One needs to look at the whole truth, not just the partial truth that you and knighttwice present.
That means looking at both the revenue and the expense side of the ledger.
Walker wants to cut pay to state workers at the same time he’s handing out tax breaks to corporations.
When you cut taxes to corporations—-whose owners, by the way, are overwhelmingly the very richest Americans—-then the money has to be made up somewhere else. That means that the tax burden on the working- and middle-class has to be increased, or expenses have to be cut.
Remuneration for public workers is not being cut to keep from raising taxes on the working- and middle-class, but to reduce the tax burden of corporations, or to increase their subsidies.
You and knighttwice go through all sorts of rhetorical contortions to obscure that simple fact. And Walker too. Walker’s ploy now is to rob the workers of their constitional free speech and assembly rights, silencing them so as to prevent them from pointing out these half-truths and outright lies to the neutral public.
After a few rounds of comments I still haven’t heard the voice of logic: robbing Peter to pay Paul won’t do any good. Nevertheless, that’s what the Union system boils down to.
Some get better pay at the expense of either the taxpayer (public employment) or consumers (private employemnt). That’s simply wrong, no matter how you spin it with Dems vs Rethugs, rich vs poor or people vs banks (no, even NWO won’t cut it…. ;) ).
One thing is sure: taxing the hell out of companies won’t do any good either. I agree that we have to look at the expenses as well as the revenues.
Speaking about revenues and expenses, people in general will be better off with lower taxes. Lower taxes = less money stolen from the people for politicians to bribe votes from the guys screaming the loudest (for example: the unions). So yes, Walker should take a look at the expenses side, but also the revenue side. Lower them both and cut services. Who needs a bloated government with strong ties to corporations? Especially when financing the charade with borrowed money is close to coming to an end in a gigantic blow up.
Let me guess: the next uproar will be against slashing government services instead of wanting lower taxes for everyone. I guess voters will never see the big picture. Perhaps that’s why they remain to be Peter.
It’s already been said.
I just wanted to be at the end of this part.
Democraatus,
Logic?
Whenever I hear bigots brandish the word “logic” I’m reminded of the following example from Carroll Quigley’s The Evolution of Civilizations:
A number of years ago a book called “Science Is a Sacred Cow” made a malicious attack on science. In this work the method of experimental science was explained somewhat like this: on Monday I drink whiskey and water and get drunk; on Tuesday I drink gin and water and get drunk; on Wednesday I drink vodka and water and get drunk; on Thursday I think about this and decide that water makes me drunk.
Take the above example and where it says “water” substitute “public worker” and where it says whiskey, gin and vodka insert the names of three of Walker’s favorite corporations that he has on the public dole.
Who can argue with “logic” like that?
Koch money levels the political playing field:
Muburak=Khadafi=Koch=Walker
The “union workers are horridly overpaid” case gets a lot murkier when you control for education (all teachers have B.A.s, many have M.A.s or some other post-grad) and experience. When you’re comparing equivalent professionals working the same number of hours, the wages are much closer. It’s hard to get solid numbers because some benefits are hard to compare precisely and most of the groups doing these studies are biased.
I fail to understand why anyone is now reciting this as a fiscal problem when the unions had already conceded on the fiscal concesssions. This had nothing to do with Wis’s budget problems.
Bingo. How can we tell banks to follow the rule of law and then countenance lawlessness in WI?
You again? Are you sure you’re not a paid lackey?
Very simple. The law must serve democracy, and the democracy has the right to revolt where the law assaults democracy instead. Read a document called the Declaration of Independence, or some Greek political theory.
The banks, on the other hand, have no right to exist at all, and exist only at the sufferance of the people. So they could never have any right to violate any law, whatever that law’s nature.
Dear Democratus,
Since you like talking about Peter and Paul, the issue is – Peter robbed Paul for decades. We are not discussing *just* beating up on corporations and saying “tax the rich”. We are saying they never paid their fair share to begin with. Boiled down, it goes like this:
>Pre-tax earnings
>>shifted into obscure, untouchable corporate shells (untaxed)
>>>job off-shored (profits, internal bonuses, loss of jobs)
>>>>some money goes into the private black hole (personal wealth)
>>>>>some of that personal wealth is in off shore (untaxed)
>>>>>>some comes back to lobbying (corruption of government for fav treatment and suspension of laws, SEC, Glass Stegall, high frequency trading Corporations have more rights than people)
>>>>>>>Wall Street runs amok and gambling (catastrophes)
>>>>>>>>Bankers “save” and are saved, (bailouts – nobody knows what to do)
>>>>>>>>>Suspension of workers rights (people are too weakened to take govt back)
Do you see how Peter robbed Paul? It’s not that Paul is saying gouge Peter, Peter was robbing for YEARS!
It’s global.
Mary, I agree with much of your post. But you left out Wall St. focus on short term earnings, the cost of regulation/environmental/labor laws that combined with Wall St.’s short term thinking literally FORCED manufacturing overseas.
In this sense, the people contribute to their own demise…they buy stocks that perform and buy more of the stocks that perform the best. If the people were more disciplined from an investment standpoint it would have a better chance of changing these than a million man march on Madison, WI.
Does it make sense that the pension plans of every labor union shower money on the same entities their workers are in the streets protesting?
Good stuff Mary. I agree with most but not all.
Why end such a cogent and thoughtful response with a snarky “any more questions”?
I donno about the Greeks. After all, Plato wanted his ideal Republic governed by Guardians who had taken courses with Leo Strauss.
How about Tom Paine instead? All you have to do is delete “monarchy” and substitute “finance” and you’ll have a pretty fair condemnation of our present state of affairs. The punch line: banks, like monarchs, are inherently illegitimate because they are based on theft.
Knighttwice,
Thanks for agreeing. So please let me address the rest of your comment:
But you left out Wall St. focus on short term earnings, the cost of regulation/environmental/labor laws that combined with Wall St.’s short term thinking literally FORCED manufacturing overseas.
*******
Reply:
Wall Street’s short term thinking evolved over time. For many years, when the restraints (regulation) was in place, following the 30s, stock returns were modest. i remember that from my father’s participation. I turned 18 in 72. Just in time to have gas shortages, formation of OPEC, wind down of Vietnam, etc. I have worked in the heart of Silicon Valley all my life. I worked in journalism/PR, so I was up close to the money machine and was a part of how it worked. If you remember, the first “buy American campaign began with the Chrysler bailout, with Lee Iacocca sounding the bell to BUY AMERICAN. Japan was eating our lunch. Nixon opened up China and from the 80s onward, chinese manufacturing took off and came here.
About the same time, Reagan came into office, started “deregulating” and “privatizing”. We immediately had S&L crisis (bail out), Miliken and Icahn doing LBOs and junk bonds, et al. Bail out, collaps, etc. The Republicans loved Reagan because he stripped the regulations surrounding wall street, banks, etc. Then we had Bush. More of the same. Then we had Clinton. Generally, he accomplished some things, but the rising tide of technology lifted all boats. Of course, the gains were enormous. The passage of NAFTA further consolidated offshoring. This good fortune in technology allowed the country to keep “growing”, but the imbalances grew, the lawlessness grew, and I am not saying Democrats are not just as bought off as Republicans. There are good and bad apples in every barrel. On to your next comment:
***********
In this sense, the people contribute to their own demise…they buy stocks that perform and buy more of the stocks that perform the best. If the people were more disciplined from an investment standpoint it would have a better chance of changing these than a million man march on Madison, WI.
*****
Reply: You are saying that we drank the Kool-Aid willingly, and contributed to the implosion because the American people aren’t disciplined.
To some degree, you may be right, HOWEVER, as so few people really know their ass from a hole in the ground regarding investing, and they are not privvy to the inner workings of legislators, the rules and laws compromised away, knowing the basics beyond the mantra of buy and sell – such as conditional orders when buying stocks, there is a stupendous imbalance in power and information. At this point in time, hedge fund insiders estimate that 70% of all trading is computer, high frequency (milliseconds if that), which only means that the public is a lamb at the slaughter. So yes, “the market” hyped everyone to believe they too could win the lottery, the truth is, only the wealthy really won. And this does not even touch the actual crimes.
If you read the excellent article by Matt Tablisi (Why isn’t Wall Street in Jail?) it carefully outlines that everyone has literally been captured. REgulatory capture, legislative capture, highly paid legal horsepower outguns the modest, less opportunistic publc servant. And, this does not account for the revolving door, either.
So, no, it’s not about investing discipline really, and it’s not about changing laws. And now for your last comment:
****************
Does it make sense that the pension plans of every labor union shower money on the same entities their workers are in the streets protesting?
***************
Reply:
No, it doesn’t make sense that unions buy off politicians – but the illusion was, that these politicians would fight for them. SOME DO. Certainly, more Dems fight for people than Republicans, who are dedicated to the almighty dollar, no matter if the polluted water poisons your children and your mother! Not that they think that far ahead. That has always been the great irony of free markets: that you could sell a car that explodes, but as long as the profits outweigh the litigation, it’s OK. At least till they are legally forced to stop making it.
The illusion though is not only in the US. People are expendable to profits and power. We see that in China, where the people are poisoned in the water and the air is brown. We remember the Olympics, where they were forced to order people to stop driving for a month before, so that the air would be fit to breathe for the athletes and it wouldn’t reflect poorly on China.
As I said, there are good apples and bad apples in every barrel. But, it doesn’t take much to spoil the barrel, does it?
So, unions were the only game in town for a long, long while. That’s why people are sticking with the Unions, because to whatever, corrupted degree, the assured the working man some amount of power.
Any more questions?
I donno about the Greeks.
I didn’t mean every single Greek. I was referring specifically to the concept of usurpation and tyrants, and the citizen’s right and obligation to overthrow a tyrant.
I agree completely on Paine.
I am/was going to differ with the wonderful commentariat here in some small way, by saying:
– “I see no problem with the *way* R’s passed this ban on collective bargaining”. But, some of you commented that the R’s included fiscal elements in the bill (i.e., more than collective bargaining) and that that’s against the rules. Okay. So, maybe that is a problem, after all.
– I’m not a fan of the “D’s fleeing the state” tactic. What was the D’s plan — to stay clear of the capitol building until the next election? R’s won the election. D’s will have to win the next one. (Or encourage state workers to sue for the state’s breach of contract.)
…
Hey, by the way, does anyone know if the Wisconsin workers are entitled to Social Security benefits upon reaching age 65? Or, because they’re government workers, is their pension entirely in lieu of that? If they’re not entitled to SocSec benefits, they should really point that out. It should help their case.
“I’m not a fan of the “D’s fleeing the state” tactic.”
How do you feel about the filibuster?
Please. The filibuster is used by both parties. The Dems had every opportunity to change the filibuster rules just 2 months ago but chose not to…..remembering their love of the tactic when they were in the minority. Face it Rex, the filibuster is “in the rules”. So is leaving the state to deny a quorum. But what everyone, including Yves, willfully ignores is that the Legislature, lawfully, issued a “call of the house”. This compels the legislators to come into the chamber. Sorry.
You are an annoying twat.
Keep talking so everyone gets a chance to see your shallow perspective for what it is.
Name calling. How childish. Sticks and stones brother….
Not nearly as childish as your half-truths and outright lies, and the naive expectation that people are too stupid to see through them.
Winning an election doesn’t give you the absolute right to do whatever you want for 4 years without repercussions. If an elected official drastically oversteps his mandate and tries to do something the people who voted for him don’t support (and looking at the polls, a fair few Walker supporters didn’t want to see him go this far) he’s going to be in trouble.
R’s won the election.
How long will this kind of nonsense keep being parroted?
Even if these weren’t sham kangaroo elections for an illegitimate kleptocracy, this pig was “elected” by c. 25% of the electorate. Another 25% voted for the other pig, while 50% had enough self-respect to boycott the “election”.
The “election” has no legitimacy, on its face.
And the “elected” pig lied about his agenda. He never said he was going to intentionally load up the budget with corporate welfare to justify breaking the unions, and he never said he was going to seek “emergency” power to dissolve elected* town governments and replace them with direct corporate rule.
[*Vastly more likely to be real elections. But for some reason many in this thread don’t care about those elections.]
I have no idea when people are going to start waking up in this country, but it better be soon. If there’s any real will to fight in Wisconsin, they will embark upon that general strike, for real, and not stop until the tyrannical state government disbands. Otherwise they deserve to have their town governments dissolved and corporate thugs directly, autocratically ruling them.
First, the idea that democracy ends with an election and that the rest of the time citizens are just along for whatever ride their elected officials take them on is ahistorical and morally wrong. Democracy is much more than just voting in someone. It begins on election day, not ends there. The belief otherwise – which isn’t just on the right, but has been adopted by all those nice “progressive” supporters of the corporatists Ds – is exactly what our authoritarian overlords want us to think. It keeps us meek and mild and restricts us to voting for some corporatist stooge with an R after his name or the one with a D (that’s the other side of this – not only is our power limited to voting, but our voting is limited to voting for one of the two corporatist parties because to vote for anyone else is “wasting” your vote). It is all disempowering and the opposite of what a healthy democracy is (which is by design).
Second, every single place I’ve been seems to be flooded with new commenters making brief anti-union comments that contain virtually no actual analysis or thought. As someone on another blog said, I guess we know one part of the global economy that is booming right now – paid spammers and astroturfers.
BDBlue said: “[T]he idea that democracy ends with an election and that the rest of the time citizens are just along for whatever ride their elected officials take them on is ahistorical and morally wrong. Democracy is much more than just voting in someone. It begins on election day, not ends there.”
Exactly!
In my humble opinion, the ordinary methods of agitation by way of petitions, deputations, and the like is no longer a remedy for moving to repentance a government so hopelessly indifferent to the welfare of its charge.
▬Gandhi
Oh My.
(Referring to the Gandhi quote)
Is part of our problem, that none of the people in power have the subtlety of mind that could create such a powerful chain of words like that?
I assume English was not even his preferred language.
When I said ahistorical, btw, I meant in this country. People have forgotten and aren’t really taught that this country has a long history of protest and organizing.
@Knightwice and all Koch shills
Is your job here just to agree with every pro-bankster comment?
Do you really not understand that what is going on is a deliberate strategy intended to divert anger away from the financial sector that is looting the country? To get workers fighting each other, union versus non-union, so that banksters can continue looting the country with total impunity?
Also there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. That illusion is merely served up for the gullible public and like Pavlov’s dogs, the public keeps falling for it. Both parties work for corporate lobbyists, both Dems and Repubs are 100 percent owned by their corporate masters and that is who they represent. On every issue, *every* issue, Dems/Repubs take the corporate side, not the side of the American people. What this means, Knightwice (and others) is they are also your enemy you unless you happen to be billionaires.
Union busting is on the agenda today, but any money saved will not go to private sector workers, it will go to the billionaires. Obama and Walker are on the same side here and it’s not the side of the people.
Obamacare (that you people keep bringing up) was a nothing but a sell-out to Big Pharma and insurance companies, but as always, people were diverted into thinking it was a Republican/Democrat issue. It never was, it was always about corporations ripping off the people.
This is class warfare, and the banksters are winning, in part thanks to people like you who seem to believe that unionized teachers are the enemy today. Tomorrow they will have you believing that grannies on social security are the enemy, and they should eat cat food so the billionaires can buy themselves another Lear Jet.
They want you to target anyone, anyone and everyone, except the real enemy who are the billionaires on Wall Street. The banksters control the media, and so they use this to manipulate public opinion. How hard is that to understand? And while workers fight themselves over scraps, banksters continue stealing the money.
And they’re laughing at how dumb you people are for ever believing teachers and unionized garbage collectors could be your enemy.
Laughing on their yachts, all the way to the Cayman Islands.
True dat.
The financial powers are dancing us like puppets.
I don’t think that means we should just back down on possibly inevitable things like this Wisconsin battle — does it?
Can’t see how we win against the horrible powerful forces stacked against us. And there is stuff like climate change. We are bumping up against demand exceeding resources. Seems inevitable that something has to give. The end of this game is neigh.
I guess those pulling the strings are literally partying like the end of the world is coming.
Is there any way to pull this thing closer to an honorable death or possibly a crippled sustainable existence for some of us?
Should we fight for a few bits of justice and rationality now or just go with the flow and watch TV until reality starts crashing down around all of us.
Sometimes I’m not sure.
Yep, it’s all about stigmatization and scapegoating.
And when it comes to the scapegoats, the mantra of the plutocrats is “let a thousand flowers bloom.” Any scapegoat will do, just so long as the blame is deflected away from them.
The plutocrats have thousands of hired guns out there—-pundits, so-called “reporters,” university professors, putative “experts,” think tank spokepeople—-tapping into people’s irrational prejudices. One can rest assured that, whatever particular irrational prejudice one happens to harbor, the plutocrats have someone there to inflame and exploit it. Don’t like Jews? Great! That works just fine. Don’t like Mulsims? That works even better. Don’t like any religous folks? That’s like putty in our hands too. Don’t like atheisists? We can use that too. Blacks, Hispanics, “illegal” immigrants, public unions, all unions, poor people, the unemployed, “deadbeat” homeowners, “stupid” investors, white people, women, gays and lesbians: you name it, any scapegoat will do. The name of the game is pure and simple: stigmatize and scapegoat, and the more scapegoats the better.
Anon — 1. Is there a solution proposed in your reply? 2. I know more about the financial sector than you could possibly learn 3. To repeat myself, I have repeatedly argued for the banks to charge-off their $400B in HELOC loans…and be penalized for their fraudulent sales of MBS…
..but somehow I’m a supporter of the banksters. Odd.
OK. You know way more about banking than I ever will. Won’t argue that. Easy to do.
You agree that bankers are getting away with stuff and should pay up. They aren’t.
Because you submit that, it is now OK to crunch unions in Wisconsin?
Non sequitur.
knighttwice:”I have repeatedly argued for the banks to charge-off their $400B in HELOC loans”
That’s definitely going to resonate with the public.
I can just see it now: huge protests organized around the country and their rallying cry: “1, 2, 3 , 4, let the banks charge-off their $400 Billion in HELOC loans, Yeah! 1,2, 3, 4, charge-off the $400 billion in HELOC loans.” I’m sure the media will pick up on this as well.
Nice try at misdirection.
No, the solution is very simple: Us versus them. Banksters versus the people. Banksters as the enemy of the people. 400 people with more wealth than 155 million Americans. Keep it simple and easy for the public to grasp.
Instead of “charge-off the $400 billion in HELOC loans” How about this as a rallying cry. March on Wall Street with signs that say: Jump you fu*kers!
We are many and they are few. The solution is class warfare. You are either with the people or you’re with the banksters. It’s time to decide which side you are on.
“March on Wall Street with signs that say: Jump you fu*kers!”
Sweet. If we can sustain this Wisconsin sense of right, I’ll fly in for the Wall Street one.
May not have a great ring to it….but are you saying that protest chants have to be stuck in the 1960s? “Hey Hey Ho Ho, Gov Walker’s got to go!” How original.
You are an anarchist. Got it. Good luck….I’ll try to change the system the American way..at the ballot box.
The American Way is direct action and participation in all levels of government — not just picking Coke or Pepsi.
Not working too good so far. The voter “mandate” is where this BIG thread discussion started.
knighttwice: “You are an anarchist. Got it. Good luck….I’ll try to change the system the American way..at the ballot box.”
And you are a shill for the banksters. Elections are rigged.
Good luck with that.
I’m a “shill for the banksters”. Sigh. There you go again. Apparently you don’t visit this site often…..
@ knighttwice
There is only one Party in ?America: the Party of Money.
Is that the one you were planning to vote for?
And if protests are too 60s for you, how about we just hang the bastards from lampposts?
Again, pure unadulterated bullshit.
You will try to “change the system” through:
• massive coporate campaign contributions,
• corporate ownership of the MSM,
• coroporate funded think tanks,
• corporate funded research grants along with an eased path to celebrity status for academics who sing the corporate party line
• the revolving door between government office and corporate employment
And if all that doesn’t work, you will attempt to muzzle your opposition using the long arm of the law, just as Walker is currently attempting to do in Wisconsin.
Oh, and I forgot to mention corporate lobbyists.
Did I leave anything else out?
@ DownSouth and Anon – pick a political system that you prefer. You know, one that actually exists here on Earth…not in some utopian dreamworld. Waiting……
knighttwice,
Oh well, I suppose the rape of America is kind of like the weather. If it’s inevitable, just as well to lay back and enjoy it, no?
But on whose authority do you have it that the plunder of America is unstoppable? Is this God’s will? Or is it nature? We all know, after all, that you can’t fool mother nature.
That said, I’ve no doubt that the Koch brothers can get any number of rockstar preachers or celebrity “scientists” to sign off on whatever proposition it is they want rubber stamped.
If you know so much about the financial sector, why do you keep quoting the secondary mortgage amounts as $400 billion?
They are over a trillion.
Please. I think I always qualify it with “top 4 banks”…since they are the TBTFs. Citi $20B, BAC $138B, JPM $116B, WFC $117B…or so. Quick math $391B.
You will excuse me for not seeing that in your comment at 9:52 or the replies that followed.
So, just the TBTF banks should write off their seconds? And why?
I would like to see it from a personal POV. I have a $50K second and no first. So it sounds great to me. Don’t know how that would affect the banking system in the US, though.
You’re a rarity. There is a decent slug out there of so-called 1st lien HELOCs, but that is not the lion’s share. The writeoff would not apply to you. The typical case is where the 1st lien is underwater….the house is worth less than the 1st mortgage. It’s a positive NPV for the lender to restructure the 1st for troubled borrowers, but only if the 2nd lien goes poof. Since the top 4 banks own most of the 2nds…and are also the servicers, it is a stalemate.
My point about charging off the 2nd is simple. If 1st leans get anything less than 100 cents on the dollar, the subordinated lender should get ZERO. Period. But you are quite right, not all $400B is toast…I was exaggerating for effect.
knighttwice: “pick a political system that you prefer. You know, one that actually exists here on Earth…”
Awesome. Thanks for all you do.
To show our gratitude, me and David K would like to invite you around for a little Party after you get done crushing those bastards.
Let’s snort some Wacky Dust, get high and celebrate!
Two realities people need to consider:
1. A general strike among the WI public workforce, shutting down the DMV, reducing public hospital elective medical procedures, etc, will reduce civilian support for public workers.
2. Recall efforts will fail. In the privacy of the voting booth, a majority of civilian taxpayers (most of whom are not public workers) will not vote to increase their own taxes to restore higher than private sector benefits to public sector workers.
That being said, Walker screwed this all up. Had he been clever, he would have preserved public worker collective bargaining, but would have required that public sector workers bargain with a permanent, appointed (not elected) board composed equally of Democrats and Republicans, with a majority required for any wage and benefit increases. In this way, you could avoid the real issue (and the one issue that those outraged refuse to deal with): collective bargaining with elected officials whose consistent re-election you finance, is not ‘bargaining’ at all – it is bribery, pure and simple.
Realities?
I love it when these people like Skeptical who live in their fact-free world start talk about “realities.”
For instance, notice how Skeptical doesn’t talk about total pay packages (cash remuneration + benefits) but only about benefits, as if benefits told the whole story.
Then he tells us about “elected officials whose consistent re-election you [the public unions] finance.” This highly distorted picture blocks out the part about how much corporations spend to finance political campaigns. Does anyone out there have the data in Wisconsin of how much money for campaigns comes from unions and how much from corporations?
Then there’s the part about a majority not voting to increase “their own taxes” to restore higher pay to public sector workers. That kind of limits the options, doesn’t it? What about increasing taxes, or reducing welfare, for corporations in order to restore pay to public sector workers? In Skeptical’s so-called “reality,” however, this option isn’t even on the table.
Of course the veridical reality, and not Skeptical’s highly bowdlerized “reality,” is that none of the current sparring treats of worker pay anyway. The workers have already conceded to the pay concessions. What this in “reality” is about is busting unions, beginning with, but surely not stopping with, taking away workers constitutional rights of free speech and assembly.
Then there’s the great irony of someone who calls himself “Skeptical” laying claim to knowledge of future events that only some omnipotent, all-seeing divinity could foretell. “A general strike among the WI public workforce, shutting down the DMV, reducing public hospital elective medical procedures, etc, will reduce civilian support for public workers,” he proclaims. “Recall efforts will fail,” he pontificates. Oh well, since God pronounced it, it must be “reality.”
DownSouth speculated — Oh well, since God pronounced it, it must be “reality.”
Dunno, I’m skeptical.
Skeptical,
These and all the other right wing talking points can only come from someone suffering brain damage. Except the one about “taxpayer” money going to pay for elections in the form of union dues. I like the implications of that. Using that reasoning, Boeing, General Dynamics, et al, who receive taxpayer money may never use any of that or any other money to lobby or contribute to campaigns.
It’s just taxpayer-funded bribery, right?
I would be perfectly fine with those limits (on corporations, as well as public employee unions). I would prefer that spending by government, state or federal, be determined by permanent appointees, equally split between Democrats and Republicans, not political officeholders who are able to receive contributions from those seeking to receive money from the government.
Skeptical said: “I would prefer that spending by government, state or federal, be determined by permanent appointees.”
Yea right, that’s all we need, more of what Reinhold Niebuhr called “scientist-kings.”
That’s worked out so well at the Fed that we need to roll it out everywhere.
The captured Justices in the Supreme Court undermine your point.
There are no politics. Just cash money and influence.
I don’t buy into your “it’s either Coke or Pepsi” nonsense. The correct choice is water (none of the above).
I hope and expect that a general strike would not be limited to Wisconsin public employee unionists. This indeed would not be a general strike in anything but name. A proper general strike would be a walkout of all workers in the state, perhaps at first for only a day. The idea being to demonstrate the depth of revulsion the public feels toward the perpetrators. It should also include a refusal to participate in other activities such as shopping, etc, to demonstrate hoe much economic clout the strikers can muster.
While it may be illegal for union leaders to promote a general strike, a crowdsource-driven call for a true general strike is likely to be hard to stop. I don’t see how passing on information about such a work stoppage could be seen as shouting about fire in a crowded room, and if everyone leads then who is guilty of being the leader? Are the jails that big?
Maybe I’d better clarify that by perpetrators I refer to Governator Walker and his gang of union buster thugs.
Who amongst you is willing to die for these beliefs? The Egyptians and Libyans have paid in blood.
Will those employed by the state murder their own citizens here?
Only one way to find out…
Are you saying you think that is part of the master plan: to see if they really can “hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half”–literally, I mean?
I once had the great misfortune of working–I hate to say “for,” but she certainly was above me on the food chain– a denizen of Park Avenue and the Hamptons.
There is no question that her modus operandi was to successively select people in the department, put them into crisis where their livelihood was at stake, and then try to get them to turn on her REAL target of the moment.
There were a lot of petty sociopaths in this work environment, but this particular practice was hers alone.
They already have Scott Walker performing like charm. Tough out there for college dropouts, I guess.
“The only effective answer to organized greed is organized labor.” Thomas Donahue
I live in Fond du Lac, WI, about 2 blocks from the public square. Last night there was a call for a 9am gathering. I can hear the chants and car honks from my back yard. There haven’t been many protest gatherings called here (I think 2-3 so far), this is a solid Republican town, the Democratic party is weak.
In the 2010 fall election, the state Assembly Rep who won was endorsed by the Teaparty. There have been a few Teaparty gatherings in the public square. I would estimate that they were smaller or the same size as what we are seeing now. Draw your own conclusions. I think there is a movement growing. When this sleepy little town reacts, something is happening.
I would also like point out several misconceptions that I think skew the debate.
1. When I am paid a wage by my employer, that money is mine. The employer has no right to what I do with that money. Put another way, I, as an employer, pay my employee their wage. Once I pay their wage, I have no claim to that money. Isn’t this true? Isn’t this a basic principle of capitalism? The free and unencumbered transaction between employer and employee? Therefore, I as a taxpayer, if I consider myself the employer, have no right to how the public employee spends their wage.
2. Union dues are a payment for services given. Specifically negotiation of the contract and representation in resolution of employer/employee issues. The gathering of employees to negotiate collectively is an efficient move. It would be far more costly for each individual to negotiate and to represent themselves when workplace issues arise. An argument can also be made that it is more efficient for the employer. Isn’t efficiency a core principle of “free market” economics? Isn’t it efficient for a group to band together and hire a “specialist” to represent their interests? Isn’t specialization what economic advancement is all about?
3. Union dues are NOT use for political purposes without the consent of the member. This was decided in the US Supreme Court Beck case in 1988. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_America_v._Beck
There is a confusion of “union dues” with total payments made to unions. Specifically, the “dues” are separate from the “political” payments and the political payments are not compulsory. I keep reading that $700 – $1000 in union dues is going to the political activity and this is not true. With a quick google seach I found this link to a document that shows the PAC portion of a Wisconsin teacher’s dues. http://www.weac.org/WATERTOWNSS/documents/ESPDues.pdf It looks like $11 out of the $400 annual dues goes to the PAC.
I want to know what you think, what am I missing?
So you know my biases, I am a small business owner(14 yrs), former public employee(3 yrs scientist employed by the state of WI), former public school teacher(3 yrs in Minn). Wisconsin native educated in the K-12 public school system.
Thank you, Mary. Very well said.
Well Mary, the only question left is whether a government acting as employer also has the freedom not to use the services of the union/union-member and go for non-unionized employees. If not, it’s not about free choice anymore, but ultimately picking pockets of taxpayers.
It’s so strange that a government can destroy a foreign country (Iraq), loot the Treasury (TARP etc), but only if a small fraud is taken away from part of the people as beneficiary (union workers), these people start to protest. Only if their part in the fraud is taken away, there is action.
Another sample that we are doomed.
Walker has has promised 250,000 new jobs in Wisconsin!!
“In Wisconsin, it’s all about jobs–249865 of them”
“Mfr: Well, our jobs aren’t terribly demanding in that way. But it could cause some problems in assembling a competent work force.
WsGov: We’ve got that covered, too. Our new laws say that you don’t have to pay any employee until you are completely satisfied with his or her performance. It’s part of what we call the Wisconsin Idea(l).”
I’m a little confused on how this will work if all states see the light and purchase the Wisconsin Ideal. Maybe a revision downward?
Great post, Mary, thank you. My teenagers have decided to walk out of their Texas highschool tomorrow afternoon in solidarity with the teachers and students of Wisconsin.
I couldn’t be more proud.
Thank you Yves for staying on top of this issue. Democracy is indeed being co-opted with one giant bait-and-switch. At least Walker’s plan has now been laid bare for all to see.
It’s a sad state of affairs when we have thousands of felonies being committed without a single prosecution, in what has been one giant transfer of wealth to a chosen few. It seems newly elected officals have mis-interpreted their mandate as permission to escalate the raping and pillaging of the economy.
Perhaps the one gleaming hope coming out of Wisconsin is that the threshold of pain and suffering may now be coming to a level which demands the public’s attention.
http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-about-who-has-money/
Do a RESET, Not a RECALL!
Everyone should take a real hard look at that graph. The “actual” line at the top shows plainly that the bottom 40% or, @140 million Americans combined, have no measurable wealth on the scale. That is a disgusting statistic! Made even more disgusting by those who would promote conflict between the bottom 40% and the second 40%. If the bottom 80% were divided equally the top 20% would still own 85% of the wealth, but then you would have 280 million poor in America, instead of only 140 million poor.
I don’t think anyone (except the Banksters) would consider that to be an improvement. A Recall will not lead to any REAL Change. Recent events should have shown everyone that elections are similar to changing masks at a costume party.
Human nature is not to soil one’s own home. A successful businessman does not piss of his workers. Wisconsin is the triumph of ideology over good governance and human nature. Government and Unions are evil. Republicans are pursing policies that screw the economy and ultimately will end in a failed state. It is strange. They all won’t fit on Aruba and islands aren’t great places to live with rising Oceans. It must be their belief that they will be uplifted at the End of Days.
Until government is revivified, viewed as honorable, and effective, unions will have a hard time. Propagandists have successfully tarred unions with government and both as being lazy, stupid, and feckless. Until there is a campaign to change public perceptions of government, there won’t be hope for unions that work for them (and there are hardly any unions apart from government now.)
Change the perception of government?! It’s time to stop “perceiving” government, choosing government, deciding on government. It’s time to BE the government!
Start running for office! Attend city hall meetings! Run for office! Protest! Get out on the streets and PARTICIPATE in government.
No more Coke vs. Pepsi. Jesus, they even have the red and blue color scheme to match their parties.
Vote Independent, or RUN Independent! I’m sure your job doesn’t pay as well as City Council Member of the city of Bell, CA — so it couldn’t hurt.
Fantastic write-up of the history of Wisconsin and Progressivism:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/10/wisconsin-usa
The Brits should know what that skunk smells like.
They do have quite a serious skunk problem as well. I’m surprised they still have the olfactory capacity.
But the article itself is fantastic. Really well-written.
Walker is a lap dog for the Koch Boys.
Thinks he’s gonna be president. What a laugh.
All the money in the world won’t do it for him.
He’s finished as an elected official.
He’ll be heading direct to K Street after he gets the boot.
He’s also a sneaky, power mad, puppy killer.
There’s an item in the bill that orders animal shelters to sell dogs for medical research on demand; specifically naming the University of Madison. Dogs will be sold for $1 each. I smell a big rat here. Like, if the school goes private, he’s opened the door to private research facilities getting the same deal. If they can be purchased so cheaply, there will be thousands more used to suffer and die.
He and his billionaire buddies are monsters.
This site is of, by & for lefties. I’ve seen no credible polls proving that support for Walker is waning – especially among likely voters, which is all that matters. The Silent Majority will come out in 2012 & crush you lefties. The perfect storm that swept Obama to power in 2008 – two unpopular wars coupled with a stock market crash 6 weeks before the election – cannot again save the democrat party. You lefties are all in your own echo chamber: “Karl Rove, Glenn Beck, Faux News, Koch brothers, astroturf, yada yada…” I’d tell you all to STFU, but no one’s listening to you anyway. Do you think swing voters read the likes of Ezra farking Klein? Gad, you people are loony. And wash off that patchouli oil you stinky bastards.
No…this site is about capitalism…san’s the right / left paradigm.
Skippy…or do you think hanging out at your Masters / Lords back door, waiting for some scraps, is capitalism…eh
Obama is a criminal. So is Scott Walker.
There’s no difference between Republicans and Democrats. Except in the minds of people like you. Both parties are 100 percent corporatist now, owned by corporate executives and lobbyists. And they control the media, whose job consists, almost entirely, of convincing people (like you) that there is, in fact, a huge difference between the two parties. To convince people, in other words, that both parties are *not* controlled by corporate money, that they *do* in fact represent the people, and not corporations.
And so, according to this Big Lie, it matters who you vote for, you should devote lots of energy defending one side of the Party of Money and attacking the other side of the Party of Money.
That’s exactly what they want you to do. To waste your time arguing over imaginary differences between Dems and Repubs. And while you’re busy debating Dems versus Repubs, the corporate owned Party of Money continues to loot our country with impunity.
As it looks like in your case the media propaganda is working without a glitch, here are three numbers for you to consider:
11,195. That’s the number of corporate lobbyists who are working in Washington DC.
And $2.95 billion. That’s how much corporations spent on lobbyists last year alone.
$473 million. That’s how much corporate lobbyists slipped into Washington’s many political pockets, during the first three months alone of 2010.
The US government is wholly owned by corporations, get it? There’s no difference between Republicans and Democrats, and you’re a sucker to believe there is.
They’re just manipulating your mind, and you’re letting them do it. As long as a majority of people continue to fall for this propaganda, the kleptocrats in charge will have no problem continuing to steal your money….
“And so tonight—to you, the great silent majority of my fellow Americans—I ask for your support.”
Richard M. Nixon, November 3, 1969 in defense of his plan to end the Vietnam Conflict honorably.
It is also an epigram for the dead, as in “the silent majority agrees with me” or on another level, object manifestation of infinite recourse, your place amongst those “sticking bastards”.
“Is it meaningful to call oneself a democrat? And if so, how do you interpret the word?”
“Today we behold the overwhelming preponderance of the government and the economy over anything you could call popular sovereignty — an expression by now drained of all meaning. Western democracies are perhaps paying the price for a philosophical heritage they haven’t bothered to take a close look at in a long time. To think of government as simple executive power is a mistake and one of the most consequential errors ever made in the history of Western politics. It explains why modern political thought wanders off into empty abstractions like law, the general will, and popular sovereignty while entirely failing to address the central question of government and its articulation as Rousseau would say, to the sovereign of locus of sovereignty. In a recent book I tried to show that the central mystery of politics is not sovereignty but government; not God but his angels; not the king but his minister; not the law but the police—or rather the governmental machine they form and propel.”
– Giorgio Agamben, “Democracy in What State?”
Could you put that in simpler terms? I’m not mart enough to understand it.
Paul,
Agamben was responding to the question “Can I call myself a democrat?” as part of a book for Columbia University Press.
Kristin Ross responded to the same question, for the same book and I think put a similar idea in simpler language:
“It’s certainly not enough to criticize, in an incrementalist way, the “failed” or “insufficient” democracy of this or that law, party, or state. To do so is to remain enclosed in a system that is perfectly happy to critique, say, the blatant seizure of electoral procedures by a Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, but remains powerless before the same process when it is accomplished by economic phenomena that respect democratic rituals—like the exactions of the IMF, for example.
In fact, the understanding of democracy as having to do with elections or with the will of the majority is a very recent historical understanding. What is called representational democracy — in our own time said to consist of free elections, free political parties, a free press, and, of course, the free market — is in fact an oligarchic form: representation by a minority granted the title of stewards or trustees of common affairs. All today’s “advanced industrial democracies” are in fact oligarchic democracies: they represent the victory of a dynamic oligarchy, a world government centered on great wealth and the worship of wealth, but capable of building consensus and legitimacy through elections that, by limiting the range of options, effectively protect the ascendancy of the …upper classes.” – Kristin Ross
And so what we call a representational democracy is in fact an oligarchy that has seized the electoral procedures in order to protect the upper class.
■ knighttwice says:
March 10, 2011 at 3:46 pm
“You’re a rarity. There is a decent slug out there of so-called 1st lien HELOCs, but that is not the lion’s share. The writeoff would not apply to you. The typical case is where the 1st lien is underwater….the house is worth less than the 1st mortgage. It’s a positive NPV for the lender to restructure the 1st for troubled borrowers, but only if the 2nd lien goes poof. Since the top 4 banks own most of the 2nds…and are also the servicers, it is a stalemate.
My point about charging off the 2nd is simple. If 1st leans get anything less than 100 cents on the dollar, the subordinated lender should get ZERO. Period. But you are quite right, not all $400B is toast…I was exaggerating for effect.”
Of course I will agree that the majority of HE loans are seconds. I do not think for a second that the “lion’s share” of these loans are on properties that are underwater, particularly those held by the large banks.
I see no benefit to our economy of throwing the baby out with the bath water by implementing your strategy. Please do not take it as a defense of the fraud perpetrated by the investment banks, but penalizing them for the legitimate loans they made makes no sense other than as some sort of misplaced revenge. A revenge that would cripple the banking system.
One further thought, in a foreclosure the second lienholder will receive nothing in such underwater properites. However, there are many states where the second lienholder can go after the borrower personally. Just as the first lienholder can go after the borrower personally for any deficiency between the foreclosure prce and the mortgage amount.
I am all for holding the banks responsible to the investors for the fraud they committed. I am not in favor of hold banks responsible for the amount of legitimate business they did.
Fair enough. FYI, BAC recently reported that its (rough numbers) $100B HELOC portfolio was only supported by $10B of RE value after covering related 1sts.
I am sure Countrywide’s program(125%) is the vast majority of that. Lot of stuff they could not sell off when the bottom fell out.
Then again, a lot of that $90 Billion of HEs are good loans. Just like the majority of the $800 billion of credit card debt in this country are good loans.
The fraud that caused the meltdown was simply caused by pricing bad loans as good loans and deceiving investors as to the quality of the loans.
We need to cut out the diseased parts of the banking systems, not the banking system.
The “HELOC is just a consumer loan like a credit card” may be an argument…but if the banks want to go there they should release the lien and go with an underpriced unsecured loan to a creditworthy borrower. This would removal an obstacle to needed restructuring of first mortgages.
The banks are “not going there”. I just stated that there are good HE loans without equity in the property. Deals fairly struck between borrower and lender that are performing.
No reason fro such a universal charge off of all HEs just becuase some HEs are stopping some restructures.
Fix the problem, don’t kill the patient.