I don’t know how many of you had been to lower Manhattan since the police cleared Zuccotti Park last fall, but it was about as open to the public as a demilitarized zone: barricades covering more than half the area, heavy police presence. It was so inhospitable that entering the park had the vibe of getting your name on an official Enemies of the State list, and apparently if you lingered at all, the police would shoo you away.
But we had thought the city’s efforts to change the rules for a privately owned but nevertheless public park were awfully heavy-handed, since these spaces were quid pro quos for zoning variances and are a long standing feature of New York. And the court agreed.
This video gives a brief update. As of this hour, the police-favoring New York Times has not deigned to report on this development.
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Hope springs eternal in the human heart.
GO OWS !!!
Cheers to that. If you look back pre 68 and to the civil rights movement you do not see protesters understanding counter cultural dress as a flaneur cum nom de plume. Protesters betray their consumerist ideology when they use dress to stand apart.
you will see an NAACP and broad black middle class effort to raise people up via, in part, a tremendous focus on dress and teaching of middle-class manners, behavior, grooming, and dress–especially of young women.
in addition, you dressed up to go to church, and the whole movement was led by a minister. if you think dress was not an important consideration in the civil rights movement and the understanding that clothes are the message was not taken seriously, please provide your support for that claim.
the fact that pr, branding, media awareness, and dressing to make a carefully considered specific impression have intensified to an unbearable pitch in our current society does not mean that all these things weren’t very present and operative in the 1960s–this really began with the first mass communication developments of the nineteenth century and began to really intensity with television in the 1950s. by the time the civil rights movement started getting mainstream media attention, the understood necessity for self-conscious dress and grooming for self-presentation to the mass public was well under way.
in addition, you don’t seem to realize that much of the costuming and visual self-presentation of the OWSers who are into it is about their own bonding with each other, membership in their own group, and this kind of thing, like any uniform, can be an important element in group cohesion–a strength.
plus you did not mention that many OWSers simply are not doing this. there are plenty of them who dress any old way, like so many americans do when they’re not working. look a little more closely. what’s practical for outdoor work and living in winter is usually hooded sweatshirts, and warm hats, gloves, socks, and pants. that’s what a lot of the OWSers are wearing right now. work clothes.
So aletheia33, I agree with you completely regarding the cultural importance of middle class presentation by African-Americans in the Civil Rights struggle. Many white Americans, even where not overtly prejudiced, simply didn’t believe that blacks were, or could be have in, educated, disciplined, reasonable manners. Seeing how wrong they were in _watching_ African-Americans struggle for their rights convinced many whites that blacks were ‘just like us’ and deserving of rights and dignity. While yes, this shouldn’t have _had_ to be argued, it DID have to be argued, and African-Americans understood this profoundly. Being ‘fellow citizens’ was the tip of the wedge that won that struggle. Now, there are many African-Americans today who resent that aspect of the past, for complex reasons including status differences internal to that community. But I don’t discount the impact of the strategy of presentation; it was crucial in my view.
What presentation would be optimal for the Occupiers today to take is not something I see as clear cut in the same manner. And there is the material fact that the Occupiers are remarkably diverse in the sweep of their origins. It is important to ‘be real,’ I would say; that is, not to seem like the media’s half-faked imagery of ‘professional protestors.’ Because that label is how the media has packaged just dissent for dismissal over the last twenty years with some success. I think that the Occupiers have succeeded in ‘being real’ in both major media and self-media streams, so this goal is accomplished—so far.
What is needed going forward I suppose depends upon what kind of organizing modalities come to the fore. I am very eager to see more _noncompliance_ by average, middle class Americans with the corrupted structures of the present politico-economy, but I couldn’t say what that will take. In part, we are not at ‘the moment’: if things progress, there will be a trigger of some kind that breaks the frame of legitimacy still Rube Goldberg-ed up by the public authorities. A protest; an act of repression; an egregious policy action rejected with the revulsion of contempt; a sudden, disgusting leak of past policy . . . something. But who could say what. —All three and more! sez I! But I don’t know. When we get it, then we’ll know how ‘we should look’ in opposing it, but not till then, I suspect. Just my thoughts . . . .
suits and haircuts are the corporate uniform. wearing the corporate uniform means youve conceded to thier first demand. we must concede to NONE of thier demands, because they have demonstrated, with exactitude, they are operating in bad faith. the whole coporate world needs its head held underwater for a good long minute, maybe a few times, before they are properly ready to deal. thats coming, and it wont have been us who filled the tub with cold water, it will have been them.
In my view as a non-lawyer activist, virtually _everything_ that the municipal authorities in multiple jurisdictions have done to evict and close down Occupations are in violation of Constitutional protest guarantees, and highly dubious on any basis of municipal codes. Litigation is underway in many, many places, and I would expect to see many reversals of public actions. What that means going forward is quite difficult to predict. I would anticipate, though, that bruising, and potentially monetarily significant losses may put local authorities on the back foot in confronting the likely mass protests of the coming twelvemonth.
One one has the ‘rights’ one is willing to defend, so for gods sake let’s defend on an offensive program if we’re to make political change, sez I.
so richard kline, thanks for your comments and here’s a wondering, ok let’s say the municipalities get told by judges they can’t sweep the camps out again like they did in the fall, plus they’re running out of money to spend on that kind of project, assuming occupiers pour back in to the sites to reoccupy, will they then have to face again that dilemma of having their large cities’ most vulnerable populations pouring into their camps needing food, shelter, and other types of care?
how are they going to work with this “problem” if it is one? ethically, they have to do whatever they can to help such victims, to allow the most neglected who have been made invisible to become visible, and to show that real community embraces and takes care of all. but that is exhausting work even for the professionals who are relatively skilled at it, and how does one carry on both that and civic/political protest/action at the same time?
i feel to physically occupy is a crucial strategy of this movement–the physical bodies in public space lay a claim and express multiple important messages in a way nothing else can. i include sleeping out, not just a dawn-to-dusk operation. that’s just my feeling, and who knows if the movement will stay with that model. but if they’re going to, i really hope some people are deeply considering the aforesaid issue. i think we need thinkers in the movement and philosophers and public ethicists to put their minds to this social dilemma and help the movement find its way forward with it.
the camps of last fall took the helping of the vulnerable pretty far, with medical attention, food, clothing, and a relatively safe place to sleep all on offer. various scenarios arose in various cities of occupiers’ relations with the people already living on the street. was any of these scenarios succeeding fairly well? was any of them really not working?
maybe those who wish to join the movement could be offered a choice on arrival–if you are concerned with those most injured by our ruthless system and want to involve yourself that way, you can make tending to/working with these people, here in this place, your statement, your act of being an occupier. if you’re more inclined to marching, getting arrested, etc. and the more standard protest forms, go for that. perhaps the camps really could do both, if they clarify their intentions around this issue. but i think it’s got to be consciously, carefully looked at and considered. (and maybe that is being done.)
i intuitively/vaguely see in this issue of the huge needs of the street dwellers and the most helpless as they intersect with the occupations both a real difficulty and the potential for perhaps powerful, creative action. but it’s only an intuition.
also i wonder if this issue has arisen in any round-the-clock occupations in europe and how it is handled there. i assume their social services are that much better than ours that it’s not the same–but what about in the places where austerity has begun its hollowing out of the public good?
“Life finds a way.”
Time for the 99% to start looking like it.
“finds a way ” …to what?
i eat lunch at zucotti everday almost — i always buy lunch at the zucotti food carts.
the park has had the gates down. the occupiers have not returned in numbers. today less than 10 people were there and at least 30 cops.
occupy is rife with know nothing mostly do nothing youngsrers who rattle on about changing everything . the wise and knowledgeable ones have already left the ranks of ows because theyve realized this movement inevitably has been reduced to a naive hippy youth mob that will be lead by the lowest common denominator demogogue agitator.
the only clever occupiers left are the ones trying to control the crowd for their own selfish or overly self righteous ends.
as a whole the occupy movement has no sense of which fights are worth fighting and which fights they can win.
slavo zizek warned them about falling into this trap and squandering their moment.—- sadly, he was spot on .
i support dissident productive behavior. its not always clear whether this movement is productive . we all hoped it had the capacity to be productive. however ive lost all confidence in it.
this just another hippy disdident group.
That’s “hippie.” Just saying.
“A TANNED, HIPPY-HAIRED former President Lyndon Johnson…”
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2716743459_0c2606ae38.jpg
You don’t know what you are talking about. There are current and former finance professionals, lawyers, regulators, PhD mathematicians, diplomats, professional artists, and academics involves in OWS. I’m pretty suspicious of the bona fides of anyone who runs the “hippie” line.
There are a lot of working groups, just look at the NYCGA.org website, and many are engaged in productive activities. The “Occupy the SEC” group has made extensive Volcker rule comments, and another group has developed a tool for people to help find pre-screened credit unions.
There are a lot more people involved in OWS than the people who show up in the park. And you apparently never sat in on a general assembly, the process, while painfully slow, is deliberate and thoughtful.
Yves, you are so right. Maybe Gabor Mate can help establish a little tent on-site to encourage the younger people to comprehend the collective TRAUMA that We the People have been subjected to for so many years. Through discussions, he might discover that the youngest members of OWS have already suffered PTSD without knowing it, and they have the signs of “neuronal circuitry” that derives from trauma.
Nah, he is right, at least about the smalless. Even during its peak in the fall, OWS, at least in NYC, was a small fraction of, for example, the anti-Iraq-war demonstrations in March 2003. On the other hand, OWS was more effective at generating media coverage and national awareness, especially considering their smaller size.
Winter in NYC isn’t all that fun. I’d say the OWS organizers, if there are any, should encourage everyone to lay low, organize off-site, and put energy into building a national network rather than camping out in the cold rain. Then in March or April come out again.
PS- being a hippie and a lawyer/professor/etc are not mutually exclusive. It’s about your values, not your clothes. And accordingly, the dude in the RT interview should clean himself up a bit before going on TV- would make the values sell better. It’s a PR campaign after all.
I support OWS.
Once an idea or meme has been introduced into a person’s
mind, it’s there forever. This is one of the values of
OWS. In the back of the most distracted American’s mind
there is going to be an awareness that something is going
on at Wall Street. Wall Street. Money. Economy.
Whatever you do, don’t think of a blue elephant.
Well, at least you’re doing your part, by… eating lunch.
You eat everyday at the Zuccotti food carts. Might want to reassess that habit.
So zeev k, you speak the to parts of the Occupation movement you wish to see, not to the parts that you don’t. This says more about you than those in that movement for sure. Every mass protest has its crazies, demagogues, and do-nothings. They come with, are baked in; are part of what a movement has to cope with just like informers, cops, and those on the sidelines sticking out their tongue. Sitting on your ass doing nothing, of course you don’t see much else—but then, how valuable is your putative insight?
Believe me, I’m aware of Zizek’s criticism: I had his key quote on one side of the first protest sign I went out with. Having been to GAs, being in a working group, having been on several major marches and rallies (with the next round beginning next weekend), I am most impressed not by the marginal dysfuncitonals but by the numerous canny and determined dissidents I’ve met struggling to get things right and build each other’s spirits up. Simply because ‘the revolution’ didn’t happen during your recent lunch breaks is not an estimate of progress made, or of distance to go either. No realistic person expected this to happen in months, so any unrealistic screechers you happen to encounter dead-ending ant ‘last month’s ground of action’ aren’t a signpost to anything but the past, as I see it.
Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
Let there be the will to carry on … and make America a better place to live for all Americans.
I been to the park during and after the occupation and you’re right. During the occupation, the place was buzzing with activity. It was welcoming and vibrant. Since the eviction, it has reminded me of something out of a news clip from the old soviet union. The police tower that hovers over the park is sickening while the few remaining dissidents huddle together and the curious are afraid to get too close to communicate.
Of course, there’s still plenty of stuff going on all over manhattan but the great open air salon disappeared overnight. That’s sad and so unnecessary. If the park is retaken, it would be a wonderful thing, even if we all freeze our asses off on that frigid pink marble.
the “police tower” — is that there to help President Obama determine which dissidents are *enemies of the State*? No wonder people don’t want to be there.
Intimidation does work, history shows. See the film, “CABARET” to comprehend *How It Works*, how insidiously it all starts; how ugly it gets, how murderous.
Sure, intimidation works, but this isn’t going to last.
Remember, the elite isn’t treating the security forces well. It’s going to collapse sooner or later. I can’t possibly guess the timing, but given the acceleration of events recently, within 10 years.
Or the book version: Christopher Isherwood’s _Goodbye to Berlin_. I took Brecht’s _Threepenny Opera_ as a metaphorical critique of Capitalist Society, until I found out from Isherwood that people had really been living that way. I mean, they didn’t sing as much as in Brecht/Weill (or as in _Cabaret_), but apart from that …
Chinese communist hatchet man Chou Enlai was asked about the French Revolution, “Too soon to tell …”
The (any) revolutionary moment has not arrived. The status quo has to much status. Once something breaks the #OWS folks will gain more traction.
There is much to lose by waiting. It would be good if the #OWS could lever between the tweedledee/tweedledum left-right politics. There is zero support for any non-corporate, non-cartel, non-money candidates. If this doesn’t change with the opportunity at hand it will be a failure of the movement.
It’s not money but bodies. Not just in New York City but in flyover country. There is much work to do but nothing done.
steve, will you Occupy Virginia? Chief home to the Security State?
that’s actually a misleading quote. Chou Enlai Thought the reporter was talking about the 1968 student revolts in France.
occupy is over . general assemblies are TOO SLOW. revolutions dont happen democratically they happen when the majority mob empowers a fascist to speak and act for them.
ows is living in a rigid fairy tale called democratic process.
it needed a strategy for empowering leader(s) 5 months ago.
instead you have faceless committees. even if the strategy is to protect the secret identity of the brains. , the movement still desperately needs a few public faces. maybe 3 or a gang of 4.
whyd they forget this essential tactic?
strategic snd organizational incompetence.
If you are not Occupy, you don’t know Occupy. You are on the outside looking in.
Anyone who is with Occupy, mentally if not physically, knows who knows and who does not.
Occupy exists in the mind. It will find instantiation here and there, assembling and dispersing as needed.
It will take as long as it takes. The American Revolution lives on.
Defend the Constitution!
thank you for proving my point.
typical occupiers will betray the fantasy land that is their worldview within90 seconds of opening their mouths
” it will take as long as it takes”; i admire your commitment but if it takes 40 years then be my guest and crown yourself king of commitment to a messy poorly planned set of nebulous goalmaking committe festering ‘occupations’.
“it will take as long as it takes” leaves open the range from instantaneous to infinity.
The system always tries to defend and preserve itself, whether it is righteous or perverse.
The ocean turns the rocks to sand.
“They tell you we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are. We are not dreamers. We are awakening from a dream which is tuning into a nightmare.” –your pal Zizek, discussing “the fantasy land” at OWS.
zeev k, recall: Jack London: “The Iron Heel” — Chou en Lai was correct.
A big online bookseller offers a free ebook version of The Iron Heel
the OWS movement did get the idea of a wall street plutocracy into the
national discussion. for that, the movement is to be thanked. for drumming,
shitting in tents, and the people’s mic–not so much.
because the first rule of Occupy Leadership is you do not talk about Occupy Leadership.
Yes, you’ve found a great reason to give up on social equality. I’ll go home and watch my 401(k) run down the drain now.
Responded to a comment that no longer exists. Nevermind..
I’ll go home and watch my 401(k) run down the drain now. -ScottS
If you are worried, you should take a defensive position. Forget about earnings, preserve your principal.
Disclaimer: I am not an investment adviser.
Yes, a troll posted using the name of an established commentor (the guy whose handle he was using had said he was a resident of CA when this guy claimed to have seen OWS last fall, plus guy whose handle he used had a completely different, far more articulate writing style and had been pro OWS).
Using someone else’s handle (and this was one you’d never replicate innocently, like, say, “Mr. Ed”) is ground for insta banning and expunging of comment.
The troll are getting more devious.
You’re telling me. I was a professional forum moderator at Blizzard during the dot-com meltdown. I’m sure bratty kids with copious free time are almost as bad as paid finance blog trolls.
The video is interesting for several reasons:
1. Russia Today. Anybody reminded of the 2003 WMD fiasco, when we had to get coverage from the Guardian?
And for a gaggle of fantasists OWS has done remarkably well, even at a purely tactical level:
2. OWS has persisted with their court cases and with success;
3. OWS remained on message in the several interviews with RT.
And so what if they wear flannel?
Thank you.
I’ve only been reading foreign press and blogs for a decade now. I think the point at which >50% of Americans do the same will be the point when the government changes.
Wearing flannel? In the wintertime? Why, only an IOWAN would do that. :-P
a few thoughts to the OWS haters out there.
OWS is and always was a gathering of individuals that are interested in exploring how and why things are wrong, and exploring ideas about how to correct this.
It is not and never was a monolithic organization, and that is kind of the point.
IMO the success of OWS, its Tea Party brother, or Ron Paul, should not necessarily be viewed through the lens of whether or not it elects a certain representative or if it moves a specific milestone forward.
instead OWS/TP/RP have brought forth new ideas and broadened the political conversation in America.
OWS has helped bring the massive income inequality to the fore of American Politics. It also has brought out the idea that maybe the top 0.1% DIDN’T “earn” that money. that maybe the playing field isn’t really even. That maybe there is an undue amount of corporate interest and corporate power in Amercian politics.
Although I disagree with much of the TP, there is no question that they have brought America’s debt into the fore of American Politics.
Ron Paul has raised the idea of reducing American imperialism, and looking more closely at the actions of the Federal Reserve.
this has transformed American dialogue, and thus by my estimation they are successful.
as always, converting dialogue into action is difficult. and the Dems and Repubs are doing their best to co-opt the TP and OWS movements… but R’s and D’s are having indigestion trying to do it… and the attempt is changing the parties themselves.
and if lucky this is only the beginning. Out of the TP/OWS movement you may see a new movement rise… one that is more action oriented.
but changing an entire political system often times takes time… with intermittent bursts. Everybody remembers the final straw, when it all blew out… but often the seeds were planted much earlier.
For instance, the seeds of the French revolution grew over a long time… it didn’t just spontaneously explode on Bastille day.
it started with over a decade of dissatisfaction (due to near French bankruptcy, food prices, taxes, etc) which eventually led to the Estates Generale in Spring of 1789 which then led to the formation of the National Assembly a few months later. Then a primarily symbolic raid on the Bastille was eventually the spark that led to open revolution.
but the seeds started many years before, with idealists (the Enlightenment philosphers) who knew something was wrong but didn’t know how to go about change. At the right time, Enlightenment philosophy and ideals were translated into action… and down went Louis XVI.
sound familiar?
this is not to say that the TP/OWS/RP movements can or will succeed. it is only to say that this is often how it happens, with an idealistic group present just as the timbers light… often in economically difficult times.
I personally think that we’re a few years off… but now more than ever is a time when a 3rd or 4th party could succeed given the continued slow motion depression and the disatisfaction with political leaders who represent only a handful of people. it is also a time when we could fall into anarchy or fascism or worse.
Louis called the Estates General not because he was strong, but because he was weak. And yes, the weakening didn’t happen over night.
Just like painting a house: Preparation is everything….
Indeed. And the elite have made themselves very, very weak through their gross, unimaginable incompetence, their failure to understand what the Pharoahs of ancient Egypt did about government, their delusional economic cult, and their psychopathically short-term thinking. They continue to make themselves weaker.
We must prepare, so that when the existing order collapses, we can replace it with a liberal social democracy — otherwise a smart, competent populist warlord will take over.
Sure we aren’t having a grandiose dellusion?
The French Revolution was about losing a government who, for the most part successfully, espoused the belief that its power was bestowed them by God. Perhaps seldomly brought up, the Monarchs were theocratic.
The US is nothing of the sort. Not only are these times more secular, but cynicism in our democracy has a ways to go before most of us loose the belief that our vote counts. “Only in America” it has been said, and “only in America” will it be said in the future.
The lust for anarchy needs to die. In UNITY, our best shot is a return to classical liberalism. We have the foundation.
Yearning, it cannot be denied: OWS started something all-important. We need everyone to participate, whether on bikes with training wheels, or old-timers.
What’s to be gained by those who are denigrating OWS redux in Zuccotti Park?
The Not Romneys attack on Romney as a vulture capitalist is an example of how Occupy has changed the conversation. Now even Newt Gingrich is talking about the evils of the 1%. That’s awesome. Occupy Everywhere!
And equally interesting is the backlash from the 1%. Before OWS they would have ignored Newt and Rick. But they are on the ropes because private equity and corporate “restructuring” doesn’t serve he public good and they know it. In future if they pick the bones of dysfunctional corporations they are going to have to do it in a way that serves society. They are still claiming that they saved or created jobs but the record on so many of those corporations is just a short fix illusion. American corporations are going down because they cannot make any money before or after “restructuring.” So what is needed?
“while 43 percent said wealth came from hard work, ambition or education.”
Amazing that 43% of Americans still believe this nonsense.
(I mean, yes, a *small* number of wealthy people get there due to hard work, ambition, and education, plus luck — but most of them are born rich and get richer by being lucky and/or thievery.)
That’s thinking in the Consumer Society. Only one question is allowed, then advertising can be targeted to fix the answer to that one question. That comes out from the recent piece of market research: given six choices of jam, people bought lots of jam, given twenty-four choices they bought less. So (trusting Reuter’s report) Pew only asked did they or didn’t they. Yes or No?
It’s like that famous Obama quote on 60 Minutes: “Some of the least ethical behavior on Wall Street wasn’t illegal.”
The obvious follow-up question would be “What about the rest of it?” Maybe the interviewer was a Consumer, and the idea of another question didn’t occur to him/her.
OCCUPY THE INVESTORS
GAIM PLAN
Saturday, January 21
Meet at the Occupy Palm Beach County site, N. Olive and Banyan Blvd. (Old City
Hall), West Palm Beach
12 – 2 pm — Know Your Rights Training (basics for dealing with the law)
2 – 4 pm — OPBC General Assembly (open meeting for Occupy Palm Beach County)
4 – 6 pm — Direct Action Spokes Council (planning meeting of participants in actions to confront and expose GAIM conference attendees)
6 – 8 pm — Direct Action & Affinity Groups Training (basic skills for taking the streets and practicing civil disobedience)
All Day — Making protest props, signs, banners, noisemakers, etc.
All Night — Slumber party under the dim stars of downtown West Palm Beach
Sunday, January 22
9 am — Caravan from West Palm to Boca Raton
10 am — March to Boca Raton Resort & Club to greet the GAIM participants on their way in to register. Meet up at Federal Hwy and Camino Real Blvd.
3pm — Flotilla of boats, canoes and kayaks to visit the Boca Resort’s waterfront. Meet at Palmetto Park inlet to join in or send off the flotilla
All Night — Eat, assemble and be merry
We are the many.
“Until you do the bidding of the many, not the few.”
I think OWS is great for mic checking, putting spotlights on problems. I think it is a danger when it considers taking on specifics too many don’t understand, consider in detail, or really care too do so. They should acknowledge their strengths and weakness. They should insist upon being clarion calling pamphleteers on the street and around the internetz and not much else…. cohesive substantive reform will need to come from somewhere else.
There are nowhere near enough smart people involved and most smart folk who were involved in my area have dropped off the OWS radar. In fact things in my local group took such odd turns over the holidays I have disassociated myself entirely on the local level.
I’d like to hear more about that, EF. Feel free to contact me in mail, if you like….
OWS will be in DC next Tuesday, 17th (looks like they’s always doing something special on the 17th, their birthday) to occupy Congress.
I won’t pretend to be as hip as Yves, but I’ll still use her words: “Be there or be square!”.
I understand Barack Obama’s best two people are organizing Occupy Wall Street. However, I expect to hear that the banks themselves have jumped on the OWS bandwagon.
Got a link on that? So far as I can tell, the Occupiers are not engaged in electoral politics at all — the IA groups caucusing for Uncommitted is about as far as they went.
Black Agenda Report has been consistently early and right on all things Obama, so perhaps this is the link I sought.
Hey, long time no talk…
yes. Something “weird” is going on with OWS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpj7XzM6pKM
Occupy the Dream is what it’s called. They’re doing a joint march with OWS per David DeGraw on the Federal Reserve on the 16th. MLK day. The head of Occupy the Dream is Rev Dr. Jamal Bryant. An apparent “wealth and prosperity through faith” preacher.
http://www.occupydream.org/
they even have a toll free number. (it’s gotta be astroturf)
thanks lambert strether for pursuing this and the link to the good report on BAR. i hope you and yves will keep us informed on this matter.
heres a typical failure of ows
1) the mentality of ‘us versus them ‘
im an ardent supporter of dissidence but when i point out glaring failures and weakness to self identified occupiers , most get cery defensive and are unable to conceive that productive discussion comes from critical analysis of strategy snd tactics
2) lack of goals; most occupiers deny this is a problem while simultaenously maintain that the movement is about ‘education’ and ‘ discussion’ ; ok then it is a school not a movement.
3) identity politics . over 50% of occupiers reject ron paul out of hand pointing to his anti abortion policy. this is the height of lack of awareness and ignorance of why our system is broken systemically. it is NOT broken because of federal abortion policy or lack thereof. far worse most socialists ( the group i label myself part of) ARE TOtTALLY unaware of the historical dependece of the welfare-warfare cycle .
4) the biggest problem. occupiers dont understand they have NO power in light of the recent historical switch of loyalty by union leadership to goverment and federal policy versus producers.
HOW can you support a union when the union supports outsourcing ?
the unions , the beauracries, the doctors and lawyers’ professional guilds -the insurance ‘providers’–// all These institutions have carved their slice out of the american pie, half a percent by half a percent>>>> THERE IS 99% it is s buzzword catch phrase designed to suck in activist youth support by oversimplifying the nature of a socety that has matured into instituional lock-in.
the nature is this. when all the horses finish pulling in the opposite directions . it isnt because they got tired. its because the harness breaks. that harness is the illusion of stability. when it dissolves , that is what you call decentralization; small amounts of panic everywhere setlling finally into stability ; usually meaning everyone gets a lot more poor, desperate, and less ‘hopeful’.
Zeev, you’re telling us nothing. You’re picking a couple of things and saying “OWS’s biggest problem is…”
OWS’s biggest problem is a fascist police state stoving in their heads. The fact is, OWS has shifted the discourse, and that was without making demands.
You have some kind of problem with it, and offer no solutions yourself. You’re just bitching, and doing it in public.
B.T.W. please cite your 50% of OWS doesn’t support RP becoause of his anti-abortion stance. That one smells like you pulled it out of your ass.
Because it is more like 90% of OWS don’t support Ron Paul because of his anti-abortion stance. Shall we mention his anti-Civil Rights stance? I can just imagine how many OWS-ers are against the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I bet I can count them on one hand….
At the Occupy NOLA demonstration back in October, the crowd (of about 200) drowned out the speaker who tried to make a pitch for Ron Paul. Not with boos, but with chants of “politicians are the problem”and the like.
Where do you come up with this BS? Please link too his anti-abortion stance and his civil rights stance? The newsletter has been debunked for a long time by him and others?
Your disinformation is not only troll like it reeks of deception and dual party slandering..
Honesty makes sheeple like you afraid…Go forage and live your status quo life…
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in that grey twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat. ~ Teddy Roosevelt
The page on Paul’s site concludes:
Which is a bizarre copout, because if abortion is a life-and-death issue, why does it matter which level of government does the enforcing?
However, in the leadup to the punt on State’s Rights, Paul looks like a forced birth advocate to me.
“far worse most socialists ( the group i label myself part of) ARE TOtTALLY unaware of the historical dependece of the welfare-warfare cycle .”
How’s that?
by the way im a plaintiff class action lawyer—- and i sue the banks.
ronpaulthirdparty.com
If you sue the banks, then you’re just the subject matter expert I’m looking for.
Where is the Ron Paul link where he says that as President he’d get the DOJ to prosecute the banksters for accounting control fraud?
Because if there is no link, then Paul fits very comfortable into the range of approved discourse in Washington, DC. For all the sturm and drang.
Last time I checked Ron Paul was a Republican.
Last time I walked by Occupy LA, I saw lots of “End the Fed” signs.
Zeev, what the hell are you talking about? You make no sense. OWS is not a Democrat front-group. It’s about social justice, which ain’t coming from either wing of our one party system.
Ron Paul could use a primer from Paul Volcker. Heck, he should pick him for the I-ticket.
Paul / Volcker 2012!
OWS will ebb and flow in waves, each one bigger than the last. Neither shooting at the wave, nor turning off the lights hoping noone sees it, nor even building a high seawall, can keep it out of the gates forever.
You can always tell when you have hit a nerve when the trolls come out and spend a lot of energy badmouthing something they maintain has no importance. I mean if it has no importance why bother?
YES INDEED. Here’s to striking nerves, and to putting the opponents of economic justice back on their heels.
there seems to be a common tendency for organizing/planning/thinking types to push ahead, dragging everyone else with them who are slower or fuzzier or more feeling types. but on what real, human, profound basis are people participating? a huge volunteer effort came out for obama, they were goaded by propaganda and a brilliant marketing campaign to feel inspired to go beyond themselves to work for the change they wanted.
many of those young people have realized they were simply manipulated. they thought they knew what they were working for, but they didn’t. surely it’s understandable they’re more inclined to allow the movement that they themselves are now building from scratch to get established slowly on the basis of something more real, realizing it cannot be conjured into being but must be founded in an ethic of honesty and a different way of acting.
i think we are entering a new paradigm such that some of the leaders in this new generation are questioning the very basics of organization as it has been practiced for many decades, even centuries. (and let’s remember the French revolution took centuries to ripen, not just decades.) OWS are doing some fairly traditional things like protest marches and sitting down and getting arrested, making it clear to the public what they are protesting. but they are also in the process of inventing new ways to organize and act en masse and lead whole societies forward. i suspect that the way that process has been and is moving is the best way it can, with multiple nodes churning hard and cranking out both sensible and odd things and all ideas zipping around a big network where they’re getting spread and considered and tried and failing and succeeding.
no one knows how, using old or known methods, to fix the jam humanity is in now, the terrible creeping stranglehold of the neoliberal program worldwide, how to save the planet and our future existence on it from the toxicity of this dysfunctional system we’ve invented over centuries that is killing us. whatever might work is only going to arise in one way: as a new creation. it can contain lots of familiar pieces, but we’ve got to find a new way. i don’t think anyone knows better than OWS how urgent or how difficult the problem is that they have chosen to tackle. nor do i think anyone understands better than they do the need for patience and other unfamiliar virtues that must be operative for something new to emerge.
in addition, in view of the fact that workers’ collectives are probably the path forward out of capitalism’s abuses, i can’t see what could be a better way to learn how that could come about than by practicing new forms of collectivity. in other words, just start doing and being the world as you want to remake it for yourself–that’s what the occupiers very consciously do.
it’s actually rather amazing that SO MANY people have joined in this effort, considering how revolutionary (one hopes not in the violent sense) an undertaking it is. sleeping in public squares in tents and refusing to leave when ordered out? who would have predicted a year ago that SO MANY americans would be out there, committed to these actions, this actual winter night?
the youngsters who are leading the way are outrageous and sometimes appear even silly in what they are taking on. but that’s what a generation of this kind, the revolutionary kind, always does. the process of creating the next new paradigm has been repeated throughout history, and whatever the fate of “OWS”, it has begun to happen again.
we are either going to find a new way, or we are going down and going out in fire or ice. for myself, since i was born too late, and lack the courage, to join these sleepers and walkers full time, the real effort for me, along with offering what support i can, is to keep open, and to keep opening, my mind.
This is one of the best descriptions of what gives me hope regarding OWS in the long term: the experimentation with new paradigms and actual practices of leadership and mass movement.
My biggest worry though: can we foment meaningful change in time to navigate the various resource peaks and the more severe impacts of global climate change? We’re on the Titanic, pounding at the bridge door while select buffoons are playing Wheel of Fortune with the helm. But the .1% and their adherence to corrupt policies and financial cannibalism are an obstical to any and all workable solutions to things like peak energy, peak phosphorus, peak metals, peak water, ocean acidification and green house gas emmisions.
one’s readiest fear is that our opposition, those power-mad, greedy, and just plain idiotic operators, really have finally found an effective means to take over the world, to extend their reach to crush all of us for the pulp we’ll yield, along with laying waste our whole planet home.
but it’s a big world. there are so many more of us than them. and with all their ingenuity, they cannot own our capacity for invention or own more than a fraction of the incredible resources contained within all human beings. there is so much common sense, really, available and ready to be tapped. gandhi said, “when i despair, i remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. there have been murderers and tyrants, and for a time they can seem invincible. but in the end they always fail. think of this always.”
to see how the way of truth and love has always won can take some deep contemplation (very worthwhile).
that aside, it is well established historical fact that elites do not learn. their minds are glued to the system they’ve fallen in love with and that they think is working so well for them. they topple while still believing they can somehow, by just continuing the same strategies, working the same game, keep making it work for themselves. they have no ability to recognize when the game really is over.
they will cease to be an obstacle in our minds as we begin to better perceive the ways their rigidity weakens them, and to perceive the immense power we can potentially muster by teaching and befriending people of common sense, showing them how they are being victimized by the deceptions of the elites, and helping them discover in themselves the power they actually can wield.
do we have enough time? no. but we have to go for it anyway. it’s amazing what people can do especially when they think they don’t have enough time to do it in.
time and power are imaginary and far more fluid, flexible, and porous than we usually allow ourselves (or need) to know. they are good to understand and respect when determining pragmatic action. and in an extraordinary time, a great emergency, we must not let unnecessary fear persuade us that they are the actual or sole determinants of what we can do.
Your comments reminded me of this article, “Doing Business The Quaker Way”, in Forbes.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/09/quaker-business-meetings-leadership-society-friends.html
“In their meetings, Quakers do not let anyone impose a decision on the group. Instead, they wait for a consensus to emerge from a free and open discussion.” – from the article
Sounds like a General Assembly.
the quaker practice of consensus is worth acquainting oneself with. yes there are real similarities and connections with the new consensus practice of the General Assembly.
trolls? seems like more defensiveness. i point out that ows is a movement that on one hand self identidies as ‘ educationsl’ and on the other — people are making comparisons to ows as some sort of all encompassing populism. it isnt all encompassing at all. it isnt ‘ ebbing and flowing’ it is a failed mini movmement within the ebb snd flow of general populism including tea party and many as of yet uncoined buzz names for movments that will come and go till one sticks. when will that hapoen? when people are desperate and poor enough. it can take 20 years. im not holding my breath.
when populiasts are demandin their government do xyz while they support status quo governance instead of a real change. when i see someone shouting on about revolution and the next demanding that the bearacracies protect his fracktivism agenda, and then this guy goes out drinking and getting himself hammered on weekends for fun — its obvious that i am correct in pidgeonholing the ows movement for what it is.
ive spentvtime with the occupiers , been to meetings etc…. i would agree with many if not nearly all of the posts on this board. and i will say— keep waiting.
im waiting for a lot more poverty and malnutrition relative to food stamps and obesity—and my christopher reeves face 30sonething cirnhusker american boy leader with whose face to stamp on thsome new brass coined movement until i ecpect any political ‘ moment’
. if i were a gambling man i would bet on it taking at least another 2 presidents after our current one for this to happen.
That’s about my timing, actually. Rather rapid in historical terms.
Interesting how much agreement we have. I don’t count in Presidents — I guess within 10 years, which is 2 1/2 Presidential terms. But I don’t expect the President after Obama to be a two-termer, so that puts my timeline only 2 years ahead of yours.
I hoped that someone of my generation would become President someday, and someone did: William Jefferson Clinton. Didn’t see much improvement overall. The Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr delivered his I Have A Dream speech in 1963 — forty-nine years ago. I think it would be fair to say we are still struggling with civil rights. Things don’t change overnight. But things do change.
OWS will arise again in the Spring.
No doubt.
The coordinated Beat Down by the Mil-Police was a testing ground for the upcoming DNC and RNC Conventions and springtime OWS.
…that part is easy to see and predict.
Now if there is an exogenous event, a crystalizing Populist arowsing incident (like some stupid MFG thing or BAC bailout), oh goodness be alert.
If such things develop and the regular citizens AGAIN take off Saturdays and “OWS” in the major cities AND are met with another Over-reaction by the Mil-Police…whew.
Breton
MFG thing or BAC action — can you explain?
Remember me to Lord Rust in Jingo, would you? I’m sure the 1% and the police would welcome an assault where they are strongest. Temporarily exhilirating though it might be…
Occupy has already served so many useful purposes that its value and impact is only challenged by those frightened by it.
“Anti-Capitalism” has entered the modern American dictionary, appearing on mainstream American news broadcasts in the last few days as describing Republican attacks on other Republicans. That would have been unimaginable 6 months ago.
Lots of “directs” have also entered the vocabulary: direct action, direct democracy. Again, the latter was unknown a few months ago. The former appeared, to some extent, back with Wisconsin, but has now gained even wider exposure.
“General strike,” first resurrected by the Wobs in Wisconsin, was actually tried in Oakland.
We are seeing things in the U. S. that had disappeared for at least 6 decades, and in some cases, a century.
And at its core, it’s not just antiwar or anti-racist or anti-homophobe or feminist. It’s class based. The greatest fear of the 1%.
I feel like Chris Hedges, whose deep pessimism has been transformed into hopeful tears at the advent of this movement, especially since it’s dominated by the young.
Viva communismo libertario!
I agree that focused attack on the class based system is what is needed and scared of by the inherited rich…..IMO, it is way past time for this construct of social organization to change.
MFG…MF Global
BAC…Bank of America Corp
That is another blatant bailout or theft
occupy need to have its own popular elections. it needs fascists not committe leaders.
all you fools out there who believe that a mere mass of malcontent malingerers can foment meaningful productive change — are morons. without intelligent leadership, an angry mob will only be capable of destroying themselves and doing collateral damage to civilians and police along the way.
disruption requires a purpose to have predictable effect.
i love yves and this is a great websie, but yves — your naive hopefulness betrays you. im not saying dont ‘support’ occupy. im saying dont place your faith in it.
zeev
Yeah, I see exactly where you’re coming from, zeev k. Useless to believe that ideas can change the way a society thinks. Useless to believe that public protests change anything. Useless to believe that ordinary citizens have the brain power to comceive of a new way to organize social and political groups. Must wait for charismatic leader, smart, photogenic, to tell me what to do. Am feeling sleeeeeepy. Must go back to my couch …. turn on TV….ahhhhh…Kardashian……..Tebow……..Mitt……
“…all you fools out there who believe that a mere mass of malcontent malingerers can foment meaningful productive change — are morons. without intelligent leadership, an angry mob will only be capable of destroying themselves and doing collateral damage to civilians and police along the way…” -Zeev
When I was a young man, impatient with a do-nothing Congress (sometime in the late 1960s) my father used almost the same words to describe why the founders designed a representative democracy. Direct participatory democracy would be tantamount to mob rule. We needed a deliberative body, or two, to assure stable government. The House would be responsive to popular will, but the Senate would take the long view and make sure no rash ideas from the rabble would be enacted into law.
Fast forward to today, and now with modern communication technologies we can begin to imagine a wider democratic deliberative process. This movement is nascent, just a baby, just learning what works and what does not. If you take the long view, it’s off to a good start.
It would be easier for our Members of Congress to turn their attention away from the Oligarchy, and pay attention to the people who elected them, if the people would begin to speak not with one voice, but with many individual voices, all saying the same thing. We have some problems. We need to fix them.
Zeev,
You remind me of my aunt who said much the same thing about the early Civil Rights sit-ins when black teenage school kids made an issue of (illegally) drinking soda at the whites-only lunch counters. “How naive to think that getting arrested for such a silly thing will make any difference.”
Something I’ve noticed recently regarding the OWS movement is the attachment of wedge issues to it. The Financial Post had a piece that referred to the “union-backed anti-Wall Street crusade”, and today on RealNewsNetwork I read a headline titled “Occupy Wall St. Takes Up Immigration Reform”.
IMO, letting such wedge issues detract from the main anti corruption message. The anti bankster issue that can bring a lot of tea party supporters on board and have a possibility of real change. Once you distract sheeple with wedge issues, they forget the most urgent reforms.
…or you attract ten times as many “sheeple” (as you put it) who care more deeply about their friends and family being deported by the Administration than they do about banking fraud.
One complaint leveled at OWS is that it’s Only White Students. Perhaps it’s time for that to change. Just sayin’.
It dilutes the message. I’m married to a sheeple. He does his best to defend the tea party, at one time we agreed on the anti-TARP beginnings of that movement, but even he sees that they have become a Republican caucus. If you think a fitting future for OWS is as part of the Democratic caucus, invite the wedge issues in to turn away a huge number of independants and status quo lives on.
jmho.
Justica is right on target.
Mr Zeev’s idea that: “…disruption requires a purpose to have predictable effect. ” is quite silly.
Disruption itself with just an idea as its focus has already had a huge effect
Zeev you need to get out and mingle with real Middle Class adults.
You will find that the Polls showing (even modest) support for OWS are actually accurate and a real reason why the Cops were unldeashed and these young proponents.
Anyone existing in the major Urban areas that have yet to experience the devastation of their finances and the commensurate loss of trust in the Governing Folks (re: what is the accepatble rating of Congress?)is just simply not aware of the deep anger in many people.
It is real
And why do you think the Feds are desperate to reflate a House Value Bubble?
Best of luck
Be not too surprised
Breton
why has ows not condemned obama?
he IS george bush jr.
why ? OWS is to the dems what tea party is to pubs. CO-OPTED.
defernsive minded dissidents are not true dissidents. they want ‘change’ on their own terms , rather than real change which inevitably requires sacrifice.
screaming for change and then demanding welfare increases is not anything but threatening to bite the hand that feeds you. the middle class and independents do not support this. they want jobs and private decision making not centralized decision making
ows has saddened me. once there was hope, now it is gone.
wedge issues
identity poliyics
lack of realism.
its time to coin a name for the next movement. teaccupation is over.
I have never heard an avowed socialist suggest that Ron Paul is the answer we’re looking for. How does that happen, Zeev?
Like duh! We have to drown the state capitalists in a bathtub before we can give birth to the new communist utopia.
Actually, there were way more utopian communities in the us before the rise of progressive technocracy and the welfare state, with all the homogenization that implies.
Not that there ever be too many do-gooder Jane Addamses around. Heavens no. The more public administrators, non-profits, NGOs and social entrepreneurs we have, the more progressive and enlightened upper middle class progressives will be. :)
most people are completely shortsighted and overestimate tge power of a democratic 4 year president to ‘ change’ a decades old multi tentacled system of beauracricies courts and otger federal power systems.
at this point in the political and socioeconomic cycle the onky hope socialism has to succeed without building into itself the communist roots of centrally planned failure—- is to accept that socialism must emphasize local action and state level rootedness meanwhile fighting offfederal level anti competitive behavior by large multinationals . you dont do tjis by buying off or ‘revolutionizing’ goverment. you do it by using the existing tools of voting and bankruptcy. the quicker the federal government is crippled in its ability to borrow money the quicker it can be restrained. making space for socialist action at the state and local levels.
instead you are almost guaranteed to see a perpetuation of the war state along side the federal corporate multinational dominated welfare state.
i am at heart a believer in systems. sometimes a social system breaks down. other times people can choose restraint before the breaking point is reached.
i opt for ron paul being the latter wiser choice for a president for 4 or 8 years. that said— hes no savior— no single man is or ever will be.
watch my video 14 minutes
ronpaulthirdparty.com
“most people are completely shortsighted and overestimate the power of a democratic 4 year president to ‘ change’ a decades old multi tentacled system of beauracricies courts and otger federal power systems.”
What kind of Congress works with President Paul to effect all those changes?
I feel that a number have, through lack of research or excess ideology, missed the point.
OWS is the public face of a worldwide dissatisfaction with the blatant rape of the planet by a minority who have pushed their luck too far and want us all, even the unemployed and the elderly, to pay for their losses while they take huge bonuses, get free medical insurance and pay few taxes.
Whether we are the 99% or only the 51% we are the majority.
Dear OWS:
A lot of us have been saying the following:
Have an encampment elsewhere and then bus into Liberty Park daily. It could be just like before, except without the issues and hassles of staying overnight. We have the resources, no reason we can’t just buy a couple of busses and then shuttle folks into the park in the morning and back out to the encampment at night. This has the additional advantage of allowing the non-protesting homeless to just stay put at the camp and not clog up the space during the day.
COME BACK! WE NEED YOU!
Zeev seems to think that because OWS accepts endorsements from various groups, and allows groups into their protest area, that OWS endorses/supports/is composed of those groups. All of these disparate groups, he continues in his thinking, can’t possibly work together in a way that is powerful enough to compel change.
AFAIK, OWS has openly said that they follow a full and inclusive democratic process. While welcoming support from others, OWS doesn’t endorse those that support it. (I’d guess it’s part of the leaderless protest thing – if OWS WAS its supporters, then the biggest supporters would be its leaders.)
OWS is what it is. And while it may not actually be *THE SOLUTION*, many think it raising issues that need to be raised.
It’s funny that Zeev makes these complaints against OWS while supporting Ron Paul because RP refuses to renounce support from many groups whose members, policies, or outlook are repulsive to many Americans.
Also: Zeev rails against OWS’s ability to effect change while supporting RP whose chance of becoming President is 2.6%, according to the Intrade prediction market (as of last night).
Maybe Zeev is an anarchist. There were some in Zucotti at one point last year passing out literature at a desk. They may have thought that OWS was furtile ground for recuiting(or co-opting). And supporting Ron Paul/Libertarians seems like a natural fit for anarchists since both groups would like to see a dramatic reduction in Government.
OWS needs to take on walmart and oil!
“We’re Not Broke:” The Movement That Helped Spark Occupy Wall Street
http://www.thenation.com/blog/165635/were-not-broke-movement-helped-spark-occupy-wall-street
Quite simply, major companies (GE, Apple, FedEx) were robbing the country blind during a time when the 99 percent were being asked to sacrifice their already meager means. As teachers were fired, and firefighters laid off, US Uncut tried to alert the public to the presense of one percenters shovelling buckets of cash offshore. For example, General Electric paid no federal income taxes in 2010, even though it raked in $14.2 billion in profits (and another $3.2 billion in tax benefits.)
“The work of many organizations in the early months of last year, including US Uncut, We Are One, and Rebuild the Dream, was really the proving ground for a new Progressive movement that burst onto the scene in a powerful way with OWS.”
US Uncut, We Are One, and Rebuild the Dream
Where are they now????
Zeev, have a look at this>
http://www.timwise.org/2012/01/of-broken-clocks-presidential-candidates-and-the-confusion-of-certain-white-liberals/
Oh look– Elmer Gantry has 23,044 facebook fans. How nice.
Elmer Gantry? Oh look — the troll can read! How nice.
No suprise you have no substantive comeback to my evaluation of this witless boob’s evangelizing.
Although I don’t doubt that talking up Ron Paul is good for business–analogizing him to David Duke was also a nice touch.
No events currently scheduled, I see. (Even the Lord’s Sherpard’s gotta eat).
To live is to war with trolls. – Henrik Ibsen
The Occupy movement is here to stay. Hopefully, it will expand its awareness from an economic focus to a social-human one. I believe, in time, it will grow into this awareness and do so without the penetrations from status quo political parties and infiltrators seeking to exploit it (from President Obama to Ron Paul). So, when that time comes will be Occupy the Pentagon, Occupy the CIA, Occupy the White House, Occupy the Networks (particularly FOXNews), Occupy the Bradley Manning trial, Occupy…Occupy…Occupy. This is not a passing phenomenon.
If these young people are “wired” to their humanity, they will serve humanity as no other force in this country is now doing.
Stand for Humanity, and your Humanity will stand for you.