It’s hard to tell whether the situation described in an article the New Haven Register is very unusual, or just under the radar by design. But either way, it does not pass the smell test.
The story is not as detailed as one would like, but in short form, a couple in West Haven, the Mandells, are facing foreclosure on a home they bought in 2000. George Mandell lost his job in 2010 and the couple tried getting a mod. They article report that they didn’t qualify for “certain modifications” yet later quotes Bank of America (their servicer; it’s not clear whether their loan is bank owned or securitized) saying that they made “several attempts” to assist them and they defaulted on past mods. Yet the article also says the Mandells haven’t made a payment since 2010 yet Bank of America says they have too much income to qualify for mods for customers “in need of assistance”. So it sounds as if basic facts are in dispute and the writer didn’t get to the bottom of it (for instance, did BofA offer past mods that the Mundells rejected, such as a catch-up mod that would have them paying more than their old mortgage amount for a period of time? That might square this circle).
The real nugget of this situation is that the Mundells have taken to criticizing Bank of America on all sorts of social media, and it appears they’ve become enough of a nuisance that the bank offered a mod, with a gag order attached, or more accurately, the bank wants them to sign a gag order, with a mod provided as inducement. From the New Haven Register (hat tip Deontos):
Bank of America offered the couple a chance to modify the loan on the Jones Street house they’ve owned for 10 years in order to make payments more manageable, but only with conditions that include essentially agreeing to a gag-order when it comes to the deal and the financial institution. That means keeping quiet about opinions of the bank on Facebook, blogs, websites and in the media, and taking down any existing postings — something that may be unexpected in a document relating to a financial matter.
The Mandells rejected the settlement.
“I cherish my rights to free speech,” George Mandell said. “We’re prepared to lose the house if we have to, but we’re going to fight it. We’re standing firm not just for ourselves, but hopefully for the rest of the people in the country. Because it’s gotta be cleaned up.”
The Mandells say people across the country are being presented with offers like this one from Bank of America and worry some aren’t reading the fine print. They’ve called or written to just about every agency out there that oversees banks and consumer affairs, as well as politicians, and expect the bank to begin foreclosure proceedings on their home in the next few weeks.
Bank of America’s comment is sufficiently convoluted so as to raise eyebrows:
But the bank says the terms are offered only to people who do not qualify for extreme modifications and that the non-disparagement clause is not commonly offered.
Huh? Are “the terms offered” the gag order? It appears so, since the last half of the sentence describes the non-disparagement clause as “offered” as opposed to “required”. Talk about double-speak. And what is an “extreme modification”? A hardship case? So they don’t seek to silence the really broke pains in the ass, only the ones with at least a little in the way of means?
“Not commonly offered” still sounds a lot more common than the Charlotte bank would have you believe. Earlier in the article, it notes:
The Arizona attorney general’s office had filed a lawsuit on mortgage-related matters against Bank of America and said the bank’s gag-order provision would prevent borrowers from speaking to investigators about their experiences, according to published reports.
That would seem to suggest these non-disparagement clauses are common in Arizona, or at least common enough to interfere with enforcement. Yet the Bank of American spokeswoman, Jumana Bauwens, maintained that these gag orders are not part of loan modification offered to customers “in need of assistance”. There is no way of verifying the accuracy of that statement, since anyone who has signed the non-disparagement clause will not be able to discuss it. And if it is to be taken at face value, this means that BofA is offering mods to people just to shut them up. Tell me how that squares with their servicing obligations under their Pooling and Servicing Agreements.
Even if this is just a one-off with some particularly loudmouthed borrowers (and the Arizona AG’s suit says probably not), this stinks. Even if the Mandells and the folks subject to gag orders in Arizona are crazies, it’s certain that some, if not all of these mods for silence deals are yet another rip-off of investors (as in it is highly improbable that they’d be “offered” only on bank-owned loans). And if this, contrary to Bank of America’s claims, is not all that unusual, it says that BofA has such deeply seated servicing problems that it prefers to bribe unhappy borrowers rather than clean up the rot. After all, if borrowers can’t talk to regulators about abuses they’ve suffered at the hands of Bank of America, those problems have effectively been expunged from the record.
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Perhaps these people who protest should take heed to what’s going on around the country in the form of who is now considered a terrorist when they do so. There just might come a time when there’s a knock on the door in the middle of the night, well, use your own imagination.
Yves,
Given the crimes of the financial industry it is proper that we scrutinize their every claim regarding any individual homeowner. But you are skewing the story here completely in favor of the homeowner, far more than the original article indicates is sustainable.
Fact: the Mandells took out a loan 12 years ago for 108k. Now they owe at least twice that amount. So we can assume they borrowed heavily against their equity when times were good OR that they have not paid in a very long time. Are we going to just take their word that BofA has acted in bad faith all this time? Do they have any income at all? What exactly can they afford? Why should BofA give them a great deal now? Are they holding out for a free house? Do they have a right to have everything they say about what has happened taken at face value?
What’s disturbing about this story is actually that it highlights how random and arbitrary are the “standards” that go into offering homeowners mods. Is the loan-owner kvetching publicly? Buy them off but tell them to shut up. You focus on the second part of that directive, but why should anyone get a bigger financial break because of their big mouth? If you want this whole fight to devolve into questionable homeowners shouting at banks and banks fighting back based on how loud their opponents are, this is a good way to get there. Well, maybe it’s preferable to what we have now, with people sinking slowly and silently. But these people, while I admire their determination to spit in a TBTF bank’s eye, are perhaps not the ideal posterpeople for underwater homeowners.
To quote Yves, “reading comprehension fail”.
She made clear they hadn’t paid for a while. She called them “particularly loudmouthed” and said in the last paragraph that BofA was probably ripping off a trust for PR purposes to shut some noisemakers up. And the irony is the noisemakers refuse to be shut up.
If anyone has a bias here, it’s you. You look to be out to interpret posts here in the most unflattering manner possible to Yves. I don’t see why she puts up with you. Based on her post yesterday on trolls, Barry Ritholtz wouldn’t, which implies other bloggers wouldn’t either.
Calm down, would you? If you get all into a lather over a civil dispute, I really wonder what you would do if I were really a troll. Probably come mark my territory.
I am very sympathetic to people facing foreclosure, and I very much appreciate Yves’ principled defense of them. With that said, not everyone is a hero to the cause and if you can’t distinguish who is and who is not worth going to the wall for you will not live long enough to accomplish your mission.
Given all the qualifiers Yves used in describing the case and her acknoweledgement of how little is actually established as fact, it is in fact dishonest of you to suggest that she has painted this couple as ‘heroes of the cause’.
disingenuity is the hallmark of a tro||
reprobate 1, leviathan 0
It’s not that there is not some validity to what you are saying here. There is. People went and took out loans that had they stopped to think about it, and had they been offered rational advice at the times, they may have not gone into those loans. i remember back in the early spring of 2006, a guy was depositing his paycheck. And then the manager of the Credit Union where we were, came up to him and said, “You know,other people who bought at the same time you bought are taking out equity loans and using those to pay off bills. You should consider doing this. With housing prices continuing to rise, you can’t lose doing this.”
It should also be noted that th4e American public is on the hook for the 15 to 16 trillions of dollars of monies given to the Biggest Banks in the world and handled by Paulson/Bernanke/Geithner. This money was “needed in orer to prevent Catastrophe” and both parties had their leadership allow the economic trio do this to us, as it “was the only way.” The trilllions given out are NOT ONACCOUNT of people taking out loans they couldn’t afford – tehy are ona ccount of the half quadriollion dolalrs worth of bad gambles and losses resulting from those gambles that the banks made4 back in 2005-06, and that they are STILL MAKING TODAY.
In Ireland, the government bailed out the Big Financial Players. But the government there is afraid of its citizenry. it has only been twenty years since the citizens in Ireland used their skills to blow up people they thought had hurt them. (Here, in America, people are sheep, and they are afraid of the government.)
Anyway, in Ireland, the government made it clear to the banks that the bailouts also securitized any home mortgages that were underwater! And Iceland has gone Ireland one step better – they have held trials and then actually jailed their Tim Geithners and then Ben Bernankes.
Again here in the USA, the majority of the electorate will re-elect Tim Geithner’s close friend, Obama, as they are too damn scared of the alternate Big Empty Suit, who for whatever reason is allowed by the Republican party ahndlers to say out loud what Obama’s handlers think and live by.
Agreed. And if Obama’s opponent can’t manage to score against such a huge target there really is no hope for him.
Yves,
Non-disclosure provisions were not common but they were available (i.e. a form paragraph could be inserted into the proposed mod) in PA and NJ mods. The only time these came up however was when a newspaper reporter or city councilman’s office attempted to make contact with the law firm to inquire as to the status of the loan modification. Also the mods these non-disclosure agreements were attached to were a little more favorable with regard to the terms. The reason the terms were better was because the goal of the mod was the non-disclosure agreement and the bank did not want the borrower to default because then the non-disclosure provision goes up in smoke as well (then the congressional office or reporter begins to call again and potentially ask difficult questions).
Long story short: 1) these provisions do exist; 2) they are intended to purchase silence or give a carrot to an elected official’s office; and 3) they are typically attached to more favorable mods (typically not great terms but there is at least a chance of success).
“Not commonly offered” is similar to:
not completely smoker
not completely dead
not completely pregnant
not completely married etc.
Not completely dishonest. No, wait, we were talking about banks, weren’t we. Sorry, oxymoron alert.
I’m pretty certain that I’m aware of another example of BofA mortgage mod/”forgiveness” which, in effect, includes a similar gag clause, making this entire BofA effort more akin to “hush money” than anything else.
Damn! Talk about “creative public relations strategies.” Downright surreal!
In a large organization a “one off” is quite rare. The gag orders are probably pat of a new SOP–confidential of course.
Friends;
The best part about all this is the suspicion, as mentioned by Mz Smith, that this is being done with the investors’ money, not the banks money. How sweet a deal is that? If it isn’t against the law, it should be. Either that, or significantly raise the payout of the bonds in question. After all, your AAAs have now been converted to CCCs.
no one can trust bank of america their fraud is well known all over america,they have no right to tell people to shot up they shuld do the modification since they took the tarp money and sign on to provides mods
How about that Elizabeth Warren practicing law without a license? To her credit Ives was never taken in by Ms. Warren.
When I was offered a “cash for keys” deal after Chase Home Finance demanded an extra $941 a month for a year to “fix” an escrow “mistake” by the originating lender Quicken Loans (and then an increase in monthly payment of about $300 for the next 28 years) there were actually two agreements, (1) standard “cash for keys” offer (i.e. you won’t demolish the property), and (2) a general release. I signed & returned the first and refused to sign the second; needless to say the penalty was no cash at all and filing of an “unlawful detainer”.
The Banksters are NOT your friends.
So what we have are any number of contracts with both borrowers and investors that are completely null and have been so from the beginning due to not only securitization fraud but because they are totally devoid of mutuality.
the bank doesn’t have the standing to either foreclose or to modify their loan! They’re banksters, that are now being exposed and trying everything to cover up the biggest financial ponzi scheme ever perpetrated on this country and its people. Here MA’s Southern Essex County Register of Deeds who says:”MY office is a crime scene!” He has close to 40,000 robosigned, fraudulent papers on his desk!
CBS Atlanta – TBTF We want them jailed:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svS63XBfK8Y
“There is no way of verifying the accuracy of that statement, since anyone who has signed the non-disparagement clause will not be able to discuss it.”
When considering anything presented or uttered by a financial institution it is best to apply a presumption of falsity. Perhaps we can’t verify with ones that have signed a non-disparagement agreement, but niether can we rely upon the unsupported and unverified statements of Bank of America.
This is a negotiation. To the Mandells it appears that talking about the situation is more valuable than the offered modification. To BoA it appears that not having the offer accepted is less painful than doing it without a non-disclosure agreement. What general principle is involved here apart from confirming the truth that sometimes agreements cannot be reached that are satisfactory to all parties?
The US needs to enshrine, either in law, or by Constitutional Amendment; that contracts cannot override a Citizen’s rights as outlined in The Constitution of The United States of America. Last time I looked, The Constitution was the supreme law of the land, and not some contract signed between two parties.
If the contract can override The Constitution, it should be illegal.
Thank you!
It’s what I was thinking — how is this not obstruction of justice?
Also I’m remembering kbhomesucks.com — website put up by frustrated KB home buyer who couldn’t get KB Home to fix defects. He put the website up, tons of people wrote in and posted their own stories, it was getting lots of play, and then it disappeared. I’m guessing he got paid off. It’s even gone from the wayback machine, more’s the pity:
http://liveweb.archive.org/http://www.kbhomesucks.com/
Want a story? Bank of America against God and His Children. We were looking for our first home and was told we could afford one with zero down, zero credit and zero at closing. Both of us working but was never able to build credit because we had a zero credit score, noone would lend to us, not even a gas card, because we were judged by a credit score. We signed a “LOCK-IN AGREEMENT” for a 30 year fixed FHA loan at 5.75%. At signing we noticed it was a different loan and called Countrywide immediately. They said “You didn’t qualify for the cheaper loan, we thought we told you”. I said “No you did not, now we don’t have anywhere to live”. They said” well you can’t afford the cheaper loan”. So we were put into a preditory loan or my family on the street, since they knew we had already made arrangements to vacate the previous property. In 2008 I lost my job due to workplace bullies and liars, as well as health insurance loss for my family. I forgave them all and moved on without retaliation, still making payments with wifes income and unemployment which eventually ran out. We struggled with countrywide trying to get our original locked in loan agreement and we didn’t qualify. The laon was sold to Bank of America which we didn’t want to do business with because of their judgements, preditory actions and exploitation against wage earners, but was forced to anyways. We hired a company to modify our loan with promise to return our money if they couldn’t modify our loan. They couldn’t and made it look like our fault because they wanted us to lie to the bank telling them we had a tenant paying rent, which was not truth. They did not refund our money. The state made first time home buyer tax credits for 2008 and 2009 but we didn’t qualify for those either. We’ve given all personal documents of proof of income and every penny we spend to Bank of America for 6 attempts to modify our loan to our original lock-in agreement but the only response was to 2 of them, we didn’t qualify, the other 4 times we were ignored. We are being ignored to our QWR of all documents, where our lock-in agreement is that shows proof of predatory loan, and reasons behind loan payment amount changes was, we are foreclosing on your loan. Where is the mortgage police? I came down with what the hospital said was walking pnuemonia and with no insurance, 3 days in the hospital room with a couple of breathing treatments, cost $13,000. Medi-cal said they would pay 3 months back, I said ok. They got the bill and my family was kicked off of medi-cal immediately saying we didn’t fill out our yearly income report status, when it was only started a couple months prior. Tried getting medi-cal for family again and was denied. By law and by what is written in our loan, Bank of America must give us all documents about our loan after being requested and its been 3 years now, wheres my LOCK-IN AGREEMENT and why does bank of America get to be in default of our loan and not listen to us and our rights, but yet they force us to listen to their demands or my family becomes homeless. Because of all this against us, I had no choice but to repent, turn to God, become a true Child of God and Son of Man, seeking God with All His Righteousness and purity, becoming One with Him and Him in Us. Now Bank of America comes against Gods Children and against God Himself, for not listening to our rights, so shall Bank of America be foreclosed on, by God’s Power through Solar Flares, imparting upon them, the same homelessness they wish upon us. Other bank accounts started charging us $10 a month just because we are poor and cannot keep $1,500 in a bank account. They rob from God and His Children, so shall the same be upon them. We cannot afford an attorney’s greed against the poor either nor do we want to pay for our rights not being listened to. This is racism against those following Gods ways and is not an equal opportunity for us as claimed by banks, we are judged according to our credit, to give non equal loans. The rich with excellent credit scores gets cheap loans and the poor gets preditorized with expensive loans. This bank is not for America and needs America’s name staken away from them. What’s equal about a poor child of God having to eventually pay $550,000 on a loan of $190,000 on a property and house worth $145,000, when a person richer only has to pay face value or half as much as I? Look what has happened since 2008 to these that came against me. Employers, bullies, liars, gays, health insurance, hospital billing, gov insurance, unemployment, mortgage, banks, exploiters of wage earners, other countries governments realities and destinies and even Americas beliefs and worship, has come against God’s Children and even against God Himself. So this is the year for the thief in the night/storms, earthquakes, floods and reavelations, to come upon those that do and inflict these things against God’s Children. 70 weeks were given as prophecy of mercy then 1,335 days until the time of the end of mans ways against us as stated in NKJV bible Daniel 9-12, book of Joel, Isaiah 65,66, Malachi 3,4, 1st Corinthians 15, 1st John 3,4,5, John 17, John 3 and Revelations 19 to the end is here and NOW! Through God and His Son Jesus Christ name, Spirit, Body, Love and Substance of living Christ, added unto the Sun, Solar Flares, CME’s, Radiation, energy, light water and All substance right Now, to pour out upon All things in the universe, Heavens and beyond, especially upon and with All on and in Earth. Solar flares with God, air with God, water with God, Space with God, All has accepted God, when will mankind accept, the living God in All and treat All as God being with them? Verry soon I hope for there is a scourginging, purging and everlasting purification here and now eternally and where I know God and His Son to be, let noone ever be able, to remove Him, only themselves shall they have power to remove their living pressence from God’s pressence, only to realize, they still have life, in their own conscience accepted. The world and universes of existences, should not have remained, against God, His Children, His Word and His Creations. They should have repented when they were told to. No unbelieving, defiled, impure, nonrighteous, sinful, idolatrous, hateful, blasphemous, homosexual, mortal, diseased, or perishing creature, shall be able to enter or exist, inside of God’s Heaven or creations, which is and pierces through All Heavens and existences of creations and beings. What doctrine says otherwise?
Ezekiel 33:9Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
John 11:26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Matthew 5:20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 23:13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matthew 7:21[ I Never Knew You ] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 18:3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:1-10 Do Not Sue the Brethren
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 16:28“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mark 9:1And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”
Luke 9:27But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
John 8:52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’
Hebrews 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Is because I am White, Indian, American or Christian? Now instead of B of A adhering to our rights and answering our QWR and our request for the lock-in agreement they for some reason don’t have, which shows proof of them upholding preditory lending practices and neglect towards their borrowers rights, they put my house into pre-foreclosure and it gets put up for sale at 2/3 for what my loan is. I still can’t get my lock-in agreement. I tried to get it from Countrywide and they sold out to B of A. Now B of A is doing the same thing. So because B of A is doing the same as Countrywide did to me, so will B of A fail in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, Amen. All B of A had to do was give me the cheapest loan available at the time and give the same equally to everyone no matter what their credit score was. But they made sure of it that I DID NOT HAVE NOR GET AN EQUAL HOUSING OPPOTUNITY NOR LENDER. B of A has come against God and His Children, so shall He give banks, the same they render unto Us.
In 3 years I’ve tried 6 attempts to modify back to the 5.75% loan and I was denied once and I was ignored on the other attempts. I was not being greedy or forcefull, I just wanted my original LOCK-IN AGREEMENT! Because no loan is equal, neither is the statement true, Equal housing Opportunity and Equal housing lender. How can they be equal if they judge and condemn the poor and glorify the rich? I was told I could not afford the cheaper loan when I immediately called countrywide, but I had to sign because my family was going to be on the street if we waited and the bank new this. Our first time buying a house was hell, so shall fire come down from heaven by God’s hand. Because of Countrywides and Bank of Americas afflicting deeds of and exploiting the wages towards Americans, the worth of my house and property has decreased $50,000. The same amount they are foreclosing on my loan for. I find my house in pre-foreclosure online at 2/3 the price they’re trying to keep me obligated to under a predatory loan that changed on me without notification. I did not know this until I went to sign in 2008. I was locked-in at 5.75% and they changed it to 6.25%. It was supposed to be $0 down, 0 credit, $0 at closing as the builder claimed, but we ended up having to give our last $3,000 to our name. Now for some reason, probably to hide the way I have been treated ever since we purchased the loan and house, no-one seems to be able to find my lock-in agreement document that even my escrow and loan documents states is supposed to be there. So instead of giving me a copy of my lock-in agreement, B of A is foreclosing on me and trying to sell my note and loan to someone else trying to hide what they did and how they treated, a White, American Indian, German and Irish American Christian Child of God. I am telling the World, Universe and God Himself, to deal with Banks, greed, exploitation and their judging against man and his credit. So shall they all exploiters and extortioners of mans wages be given what they have done to God’s Children, DOUBLE in the Name of My Lord, Jesus Christ, in the form of storms and solar flares with God, His Spirit, Power, His Son and Blood being added in the Air, Light, Solar substance and water too, with God’s energy and power piercing through and eternally purifying All physical and spiritual substance. It IS DOne!
Now instead of B of A adhering to our rights and answering our QWR and our request for the lock-in agreement they for some reason don’t have, which shows proof of them upholding preditory lending practices and neglect towards their borrowers rights, they put my house into pre-foreclosure and it gets put up for sale at 2/3 for what my loan is. I still can’t get my lock-in agreement. I tried to get it from Countrywide and they sold out to B of A. Now B of A is doing the same thing. So because B of A is doing the same as Countrywide did to me, so will B of A fail in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, Amen. All B of A had to do was give me the cheapest loan available at the time and give the same equally to everyone no matter what their credit score was. But they made sure of it that I DID NOT HAVE NOR GET AN EQUAL HOUSING OPPOTUNITY NOR LENDER. B of A has come against God and His Children, so shall He give banks, the same they render unto Us.
Gods judgement, spirit and Jesus added to sun and solar flares is taking down B of A and greed. Why did banks and B of A hire American Christian hating muslims to service American Christian loans?
Everyone wants to blame others or take credit for what God is doing to banks greed, exploitation of peoples wages and affliction against His Children. This is what’s up. God and Jesus added to the Sun’s energy, substance, power and light which is added to our atmosphere, light, air, water, earth and beings, to perform His will. Solar Flares, CME’s and sunlight, sun’s energy, radiation and substance added to Water, air, and food with God, His word, His Son, His Son’s Blood and Holy spirit, truth, purity and righteousness, is coming for Bank of America and all that exists in the universe, Earth , All heavens and beyond, Past present and future, Eternally and NO-ONE can remove Him from there in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen!
Solar Flares and CME’s Plus God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the Light and energy of the Sun is upon the wage earner exploiters of Bank Of America and other banks as the Lord being a swift witness against them and those who support them, as well as All others for a blessing or curse, to each his own reward for what they have done to others and continue doing so without repentance when asked to.
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
The Reign and Indignation of God
Isaiah 66:14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, And your bones shall flourish like grass; The hand of the Lord shall be known to His servants, And His indignation to His enemies.
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.
Psalm 21:9
You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them.
Psalm 89:46
How long, LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire?
Isaiah 9:19
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts The land is burned up, And the people shall be as fuel for the fire; No man shall spare his brother.
Ezekiel 21:31
I will pour out My indignation on you; I will blow against you with the fire of My wrath, And deliver you into the hands of brutal men who are skillful to destroy.
Ezekiel 22:21
Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.
Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 38:19
For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel,
Malachi 3
The Coming Messenger
1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the Lord An offering in righteousness.
4 “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem Will be pleasant to the Lord, As in the days of old, As in former years.
5 And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien— Because they do not fear Me,” Says the Lord of hosts.
6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
7 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the Lord of hosts. “But you said, ‘In what way shall we return?’
Do Not Rob God
8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ‘In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this,” Says the Lord of hosts, “If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.
11 “And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,” Says the Lord of hosts;
12 “And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land,” Says the Lord of hosts.
The People Complain Harshly
13 “Your words have been harsh against Me,” Says the Lord, “Yet you say, ‘What have we spoken against You?’
14 You have said, ‘It is useless to serve God; What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance, And that we have walked as mourners Before the Lord of hosts?
15 So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up;
They even tempt God and go free.’”
A Book of Remembrance
16 Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name.
17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.
Malachi 4
The Great Day of God
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
First poster Norman is a moron. This is a Republic, I don’t fear the Governemnt, they work for me, not the other way around. Like others I am tired of the fear mongering.
I think the purpose of their gag order is to conceal the amount of the mod so as not to influence the market and keep their artificial prices up.
Also, I think al Queda (sp?) is trying to brainwash us.
Bottom line:
Our “system” is predatory….not “benevolent”.
If you understand that much you are light years in front of everyone else.
Good luck!