Yves here. We had included a tweet a couple of days ago alleging that Israel was using white phosphorus in Gaza and warned it was not confirmed. Now it has been. It’s not as if this the first time this has occurred in the region and by Israel in Gaza in particular.
But this isn’t surprising given views like this (I am derivatively breaking Lambert’s rule about the use possible or actual harm to babies as a talking point):
FORMER ISRAELI PM NAFTALI BENNETT LOSES IT WHEN ASKED ABOUT BABIES ON INCUBATORS DYING DUE TO ISRAEL CUTTING OFF ELECTRICITY
****#Hamas #IsraelFightsBack #PalestineUnderAttack #Israel #Gaza #IsraelTerrorists #IsraelPalestineWar #Palestine pic.twitter.com/luN2rkZxu4— पवित्रा श्री मिश्रा 🚩🚩🚩 (@spavitra277) October 12, 2023
This incident occurs as Israel is engaging in unabahsed war crimes in the form of collective punishment, as in indiscriminate shelling of Gaza with the expressed aim of reducing it to a tent city, and cutting off water, electricity, and blocking food supplies. The flip side is that experts have said that the Israeli Defense Forces are going to have a very difficult and high-casualty task before them if the government sets out to clear Gaza. It will make Bakhmut look like a party.
By Brett Wilkins, a staff writer for Common Dreams. Originally published at Common Dream
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I think Israel support (or lack thereof) in USA has reached a tipping point. In the past showing any sympathy towards Palestinians would immediately get you labeled as anti Semitic. This week while working in the hair salon I saw around 24 clients between Monday and Weds. At least half expressed sympathy with the Palestinian people. One client even expressed gratitude towards me that she knew she could tell me her sympathies, but was afraid to share them with others.
Having followed this issue for years now, with most of my info coming from the anti war community, this current use of WP is not at all surprising. Israels war making tactics are rather predictable it seems. What they have done in the past they will do in the future.
I wish that I could echo this observation. At least in the fire engine red area where I live, most people are all-in for Israel. Even the conservatives who were starting to get wise to war and empire have reverted to type as foaming at the mouth neocons, yea, like unto a dog who returneth to his own vomit.
And the (few) liberals? Well, the less said, the better. .
It amazes me, after the lies of the First War On Iraq, the War on Afghanistan, the Second War On Iraq, the War on Libya, the War on Syria all based on lies, all well within living memory, that humans fall for it, over and over again.
And the same neocon crew instigating all of these wars.
Ignorance is bliss. People like bliss.
Bliss is having a job, especially one that 1. pays relatively well, 2. is morally right, 3. is also done by others in their communities. Hence military work – who do you think ordered the production of WP in the first place, China?
Well, “Where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.”
The blissful definitely do not like the wise disturbing their bliss, you are correct.
I grew up here in a Baptist culture and while not glory shouters or anything they do take all that stuff in the old testament seriously and teach it in Sunday school. So God smiting his people’s enemies is accepted as literally true and that version of Christianity seen as more a continuation of Judaism rather than a repudiation. This is convenient when it comes to doing some unsavory things (by our avowed modern humanism) because the Old Testament is full of it.
All of which is to say that religious beliefs have a very great deal to do with Red state support for Israel. One would think the far more secular Dems would want to oppose this. One would think wrong.
I would say its the opposite. In the US I think Baptists are heavily influenced by dispensationalism which sees Israel as continuing in time as God’s chosen people, while the (Christian) Church will be raptured.
I don’t think my Baptists were the rapture Baptists which seems to be a more recent trend. They were Billy Graham accept the Lord or else Baptists–more about the threat of Hell than details re Heaven.
In any case my comment more in the spirit of speculation than expertise.
Yeah, the old testament is ‘full of it” , alright.
Moses never existed. There is no historical evidence of any jewish exodus.
People ought to remember that Ahkenaten (father of king tut) was the first to espouse monotheism, over the religion of the day. Leaving the “old world” to create a new city in the desert…
It isn’t a stretch to figure this is what the hebrews copied in creating their creation myths.
So,
god never promised them anything. And they were never the “chosen” people. And there is no reason to believe anyone ever “got” the 15… oy… 10 commandments. for all to obey.
There’s a commandment about killing and stealing which binds both the Jews and Christians.
And there’s also the sermon on the mount which calls for Christians to turn the other cheek. Also somethng about the meek inheriting the earth (and the Gazans would distinctly fall into this category).
These folks can’t even practice their own religions correctly.
People in the US have as much freedom of speech as in the Soviet Union. This is achieved through self censorship as you get singled out and become ostracized by the media and the people in power who want to push their narrative.
So they choose to shut up and say nothing, we have become a nation of cowards.
Look what happened to those students at Harvard, they had cars with their photos paraded around and you can be sure it will be in their record and their job prospects will take a hit. It’s same for almost everyone, we have no moral compass, only selfish economic interests.
six days, 6000 heavy bombs
1600 dead, 300000 homeless!
israel is ding grave sin
Is there reliable polling broken down by age, region, race, religion, party affiliation?
My gut feeling is that support is very positively correlated with age, evangelical Christianity, and “red America.”
Can’t speak as to its reliability, but here is a Gallup poll from March of this year, showing a trend, driven by young people and Democrats, of increasing sympathy with the Palestinian perspective.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx
Identifying the oppressor and the oppressed doesn’t seem like something which would be taught in American schools; assuming the polls’ reliability, I suspect alternative and social media drive this, as well as the international outreach and education by BDS and the Palestinian diaspora more generally.
Of course, it remains to be seen if this sympathy will survive the propaganda blitz covering for this second Nakba.
Maybe this was the point of those Hamas raids. To force the Israelis to drop their masks and to show the world what they were all about. So no more ‘the only democracy in the middle east’ or having ‘the most ‘moral army in the world.’ You have to be pretty far gone in the head to agree that cutting water and food from a people is a moral thing to do as that is a war crime in capital letters. I found it ironic where some text in that Sky News video clip said that Netanyahu was saying that Hamas should be treated like ISIS. When ISIS actually had a border with Israel they both had very friendly relations with each other and not only did the Israelis give them arms and ammo, but their medics went into their territory to retrieve their wounded to take back to Israeli hospitals for treatment. The guards on both sides were filmed greeting each other like old friends and the one time a ISIS team dropped a few mortar rounds into Israel, ISIS leaders went to Israel to personally apologize for that mishap. And you know that I am making none of this up.
I’ve wondered this too. I’m no expert. I’ve only been casually following things, though I’ve brushed up a lot since the raids. Trying to force Israel’s hand in a way that can’t be ignored is one reason I’ve considered for what happened.
Depressing situation anyway.
“To force the Israelis to drop their masks and to show the world what they were all about. So no more ‘the only democracy in the middle east’ or having ‘the most ‘moral army in the world.’ You have to be pretty far gone in the head to agree that cutting water and food from a people is a moral thing to do as that is a war crime in capital letters.”
If that was the point, it isn’t working. At least from what I see, most are cheering this on like it was an especially stupid Marvel Comic Universe movie.
“…most are cheering this on like it was an especially stupid Marvel Comic Universe movie.”
Most of whom? See map of the “international community” we hear so much about.
I get your point, but my words “At least from what I see, most….” should make it clear that I wasn’t conducting a global poll.
Whom you are seeing would make excellent detail. I haven’t had the courage yet to ask a stranger what they think. My family near and far for the most part is pretty well informed of the state of play. Our younger son took some work. He’s a fire performer on the rave circuit. He’s (rightfully) absolutely distraught over the slaughter of that crowd. As he describes it, the vast majority of people who regularly attend raves are looking to escape the madness of our surroundings. However, he’s fully aware two wrongs do not make a right, a idea that will become more and more apparent to more and more people as the second wrong grows and grows and spawns more and more wrongs.
n = tiny, but that’s what I’m seeing on the ground.
……telling people packed in a concentration camp to ‘move within 24 hours because we’re going to level it’
From CommonDreams.
‘We Must Halt This’: US Progressives, Humanitarians Decry Israel’s Evacuation Order
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-evacuation-order
I don’t think it’s fair to call gaza a “concentration camp”. It is more like a “ghetto”
The catholic church first created “ghettos’ for jews, making them wear the star, in italy in the 1800’s. Napolean let them out when he took over italy.
And more recently, the “ghettos” in poland, where the germans were keeping the jews, until they finally over ran them with soldiers. That is a good analogy , I think; to what the isreali’s are doing to gaza.
The isreali’s are the nazi’s , now.
No, Freethinker is correct. Entry and exit are tightly controlled. Did you miss that it was a big deal that Hamas was able to get over the perimeter fences? Since when is a ghetto an actual cage, as opposed to one created by poverty and discriminatory housing practices?
Israel even restricted the number of calories per person during a 2007-2010 blockade:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
Seems like a high-tech prison, not a ghetto. The Guardian:
Beginning with a detonation from what appeared to be an anti-tank guided missile, members of Hamas’s special forces – Nukhba – quickly moved to secure entrances to the complex and to the access gate used by the Israeli military to enter Gaza during incursions, engaging Israeli forces in their watchtowers set into the wall.
In one shot a body can be seen lying on the ground in a concrete-lined tunnel. The surprise was total.
The aim of militants at Erez and other key locations along the Gaza border, as has become clear since Hamas launched its murderous rampage through southern Israel, was to decapitate the ability of Israel’s security forces to communicate with each other.
Videos posted to Hamas social media sites showed the militants moving quickly to engage Israeli vehicles that could stand in their way, including the apparent disabling of a tank hit by a munition dropped from a drone near the border fence.
On motorbikes, by car and on foot, bristling with weapons, a first wave of 400 Hamas militants poured across the border into Israel at the 15 points where they had breached the security barrier.
And in the space of a few hours, a wall and fence system costing billions of dollars to build, and designed to prevent being tunnelled under, equipped with a vast array of cameras and motion sensors , had been well and truly breached.
so, the ghetto’s of poland , in @1940, where the jews were forced into confined areas, bricked in and would be shot if they left the area.. doesn’t sound like gaza… hmmmm?
But yeah.. an open air prison.. that works too.
well, concentration camps didn’t have any exit. They didn’t have an apartment, or a hospital,or stores, etc. I’m not minimizing the plight of palestinians there.
It is hyperbole to call gaza a concentration camp. Maybe it is a “concentration zone”… or something to differentiate from the historical term of concentration camp.
A prison camp, even. would fit. The “open air prison” is good.
I believe you are thinking of a ghetto like we have had in places like bedford styvesant. in brooklyn or in urban areas in the US… as opposed to the “ghetto’s of poland and eastern europe like in warsaw where jews,poles,roma,etc.. were forced into small confined areas, bricked and barbed wired in, and shot if they escaped.
OOPs, that was a reply to Yves above.
The use of the term “ghetto” by Nazis to marginally pretty up their internment of Jews and other undesirables is not consistent with its origins or prevalent use of the term. From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto
Mac Davis’s take on the ghetto as covered by Elvis.
I would say that the nazi’s connection to the word ghetto , in their versions, are actually consistant with the original “ghettos”, in italy.
The catholic church, decreed, with a papal bull that jews be confined to certain parts of various cities. In the papal bull of 1555, where they created the ghetto of rome, the jews were forced to pay for the building of the walls to keep them in. They were allowed out during the day, but had to go back at night, and wear clothing to let everyone know who they were..
This is an example of state sponsored terror. this was also during a period of hundreds of years of inquisition by the catholic church, where jews and other non-aligned christians and muslims, were persecuted,tortured,killed,etc.
This is why I feel It is an acceptable description. Not that everyone has to agree. sorry for the digression. Except that this form of state sponsored terror, is at the heart of this plight of the palestinians.
One can split historical and semantic hairs, but it seems that, basically, American Chinatowns were ghettos.
https://www.history.com/news/american-chinatowns-origins
Thanks …..actually, I used to use the term prison camp until someone pointed out that for you be a prison camp you had to have nominally committed a crime, not just have been born something deemed ‘wrong’ by those with the power of life or death over you. As for the West bank, I spent a few years in S. Africa at the end of apartheid & anyone who was there can list the qualifying criteria in Israel today.
There is a lesser known example of concentration camp than the notorious nazi ones, where villagers were interned ‘for their own protection’ so they’d be unable to help freedom fighters. Civilians in these camps were guarded, with movement controlled, food, shelter & medical care limited so people died slowly enough for the authorities to claim it was natural. It was in East Timor under Indonesian rule when Western countries again turned a blind eye, thereby collaborating with the powerful player in the dispute, because greed, hypocrisy, apathy.
The Americans tried that in Vietnam too. It was called the Strategic Hamlet Program. A father-in-law of a cousin who migrated to the South once lived in such a camp. From what he told me, life in that place was harrowing and only made the villagers supported Viet Minh even more.
IMHO, I think the idea was to ensure Israel enters the Gaza despite it being illogical, to use Hezb’llah techniques on the IDF – Israeli hubris remains dominant – and to drag Hezb’llah in, though if the IDF keeps using white phosphorus in Lebanon, Gaza fighting may not be needed to drag them in. Once Hezb’llah destroys all israeli airfields, the IDF will find itself on the defensive, without an economic base to support its military (and the US cupboard is getting empty).
If that was the point of Hamas attacking they were awfully willing to sacrifice countless civilians. Perhaps they thought that taking hostages would make a difference – if so then they were mistaken.
What I’m seeing is that the anti-war left which has been silent or supportive of Ukraine, gone full on pro-war, had completely forgotten about the plight of the Palestinians, seems to have woken from deep slumber and remembered at least the foggy outlines of what should have been their own stance.
It’s annoying because they’ve compromised their own logic. You can’t on the one hand condemn Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea seeking to defend themselves from attacks on Russian-speaking civilians for the crime of not being Ukrainian, creating laws which divests them of their language, culture and rights, and then also defend Palestine and Israeli-Arabs against the same from Israel for not being Jewish. Ukraine wants to set up a Ukrainian only state minus Russian-Ukrainians, Israel wants to set up a Jewish only state minus Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing takes the same form no matter who is doing it.
Hopefully this will help people sort out their own broken and contradictory logic, realign with what should be their own principles.
As they used to (?) say in Joisey: “Well whada ya gonna doo aboudit?”
This comment appears to be drive-by snark. Not cogent at all. What I’m going to do about it? Ignore the commentor forever!
I would say that Cristobal made a legitimate point.
We are ruled by humans who se behavior is indistinguishable from that of sociopaths. Pointing out hypocrisy or evil intent to a sociopath is as pointless as quoting Bible verses to an armed robber.
The robber will laugh in your face, delighted in your impotence.
Reward and punishment are the language that the sociopath understands.
A .357 held to the head of said robber and the sure knowledge that you will pull the trigger without hesitation elicits a somewhat different response.
There is a point that might be had, imo. The US could stop the carnage in a minute, but they (we) won’t.
Debbie Dingell, my congress person, represents the largest Muslim population in the US. I suspect she might be on board with a demand for a cease and desist order. There are several others, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, but how many others?
Will they dare to cross Team D and Biden? From what I have seen, I doubt it,
Now, if Team R were in the White House, they might be much less publicly and blatantly war-horny. But since Biden is Team D…..
Team D and Biden are impotent. It’s the military industrial complex that is calling the shots and if you cross the MIC, you end up outcast or worse, like Assange, Snowden, Taibbi, etc.
Both factions of the D/R dictatorship have unconditionally supported Israel, DT included. And crudely speaking, they both represent the ruling oligarchy, which includes MIC
*sarcasm
I was expressing the attitude of those perpetrating this war crime (too mild a term. Monstrosity is better). The impunity those people enjoy is infuriating!
I am not an expert in chemical weapons, just trying to clarify. Looking at footage in Ukraine, Russia loves using incendiary shells supposedly filled with thermite. They help in setting off explosive traps, start fires in trenches, and illuminate the area (according to a pro-russian tweet). It doesn’t seem to cause much smoke.
Does the extremely bright light that rests on the ground give away that the weapon is thermite?
White Phospherous on the other hand creates thick white smoke. I am guessing that exposure to any of the white smoke causes horrific chemical burns versus touching the burning thermite which would also causes severe burns.
A great source of confusion.
According to Wikipedia, willy p (white phosphorus) smoke isn’t so deadly except in high concentrations.
Just like thermite, you have to be exposed directly to white phosphorous from the ammunition (bright burning particles) to get the horrific burns.
The only visible difference is smoke creation.
So yeah, be in a trench. Be in a bunker.
WebMD does not agree:
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/white-phosphorus-bombs-overview
“The only visible difference is smoke creation”.
I meant the literal, visual difference between identifying a white phosphorous attack and a thermite attack when it deploys.
Not trying to downplay the insidious nature of the chemical weapon.
It is the most terrifying death , as you are boiled alive from inside with no remedy, I would rather be skinned alive than endure white phosphorous burn.
Russia uses thermobaric shells usually in its very last stage of clearing operations. Yes, they are very nasty but generally the kill close to instantly by evacuating all the air:
http://roe.ru/esp/catalog/las-fuerzas-de-tierra/sistemas-de-misiles-mlrs-atra-y-ca%C3%B1ones-de-artiller%C3%ADa-de-campo/tos-1a/
Russia takes some care not to use them against civilian tartets.
Sorry to correct you, but it is Oxygen which removed, or consumed, from the air and any where else, like flesh and blood by thermobaric devices in a fierce chemical reaction. The reaction is not quite an explosion.
I was under the impression that its use is or was a war crime.
I observe that the Jews people have Con cured the “promised Land” a number ,of times.
One when lead by Moses.
A second after the Assyrians capture the people.
A third after the Romans depopulated the country
Under these rules the Indians in the US should have the Americas
A Number of atrocities were perpetuated against the British IN ww2.
On whose authority did The US recognize Israeli as a Country at the end of the British Mandate?
Wikipedia begs to differ:
They are also not prohibited, so their uses against military targets is not a war crime:
Attempted prohibitions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon
Wikipedia is (as it sometimes isn’t) correct. Note, also, that there is a difference between a thermobaric bomb (see also “fuel air explosive” and “exploding grain silos”) which disperses an aerosol and then ignites it to create the effect, and thermite, which is a mix of … stuff … that burns at an incredibly high temperature. Thermite grenades will melt through an engine block and are commonly used for disabling equipment.
Not sure that thermite is used in artillery rounds – I’m open to being enlightened – but they weren’t on my list of things I could pick up the radio and call for. White phosphorous, on the other hand, was.
> Looking at footage in Ukraine, Russia loves using incendiary shells supposedly filled with thermite.
If it looks like a rain of shooting stars falling slowly from the sky, then it’s magnesium.
A typical incendiary rocket for Grad (9M22S) looks something like this. This one is most probably Ukrainian, but both sides use the same Soviet type. Those dull hex-rod pieces are made of standard industrial magnesium alloy.
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/media/images/photographs/2014_Ukraine_9M22S%20Grad.JPG
(The image from a HRW memorandum of 2017
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/20/overdue-review-addressing-incendiary-weapons-contemporary-context
)
WP smoke does not cause burns unless you happen to be next to the burning phosphorous. It’s not particularly pleasant, but similar to campfire smoke on your eyes, etc.
Gaza is one of the most densely populated region in the world. With so many civilians packed into a small area it seems very likely that the phosphorous falls on people. Doctors working in Gaza back in 2009 reported this sort of thing.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/white-phosphorus-not-forgotten-gaza/8170
and from this week:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-white-phosphorus-weapons-gaza-human-rights-group-rcna120272
Targeting civilians and collective punishment are both war crimes.
Using WP munitions is only a war crime if used against civilians. Targeting the port structure with WP is not a war crime. Targeting the port structure with any sort of munition while the port is teeming with civilians trying to get away is a war crime.
WP is not a chemical weapon avoiding to the CWC et al., it’s considered an explosive or incendiary, so focus must be on the many actual war crimes that are currently being committed.
Exactly. I agree that WP is not the real issue, it’s using it against occupied populations under siege. The links above provide reports of doctors treating civilians with WP injuries.
A number of writers have established that Bibi publicly stated a policy of supporting Hamas to undermine Fatah and to create an opponent who could be portrayed as impossible to negotiate with. This fleshes out the criticism of Bibi made by Haaretz immediately after Saturday’s attacks — hoorah for them — and polls are already indicating Bibi will be gone after the fighting ebbs, though just when that will be is very unclear. A question that arises is what will be the response of the Israeli right to the breakup of their disaster-producing political formation. They killed Rabin in 1995; the disappointment and outrage they will feel as they lose power now will make that period look tranquil.
The exposure of Bibi’s shaping of the Palestinian adversary parallels NATO’s shaping of Russia’s response set. While NATO didn’t literally create a segment of the Russian elite that opposed negotiations, over decades they destroyed the credibility of any grouping that would try to pursue them. In both cases this led to a militarized outcome filled with bloody shirts to wave. My hopium of the day is that this parallel may open more eyes.
“See, Israel has this Extra Special White Phosphorus that only they know about and that only kills Bad People.”
I am waiting for some TeeVee talking head or Israel enabler to spout something like this.
If Russia were to clear Ukrainian cities using industrial scale white phosphorus, the howls of outrage would be deafening. But since Israel is America’s Special Pet….*crickets*
We’ll probably see Christiane Amanpour sniff a elementary student’s back pack and confim that the child was killed using the special WP, therefore it was a good kill…
No need to wait, they already have. MSM talking point of the week: “Hamas targets.”
https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/israeli-intelligence-suddenly-knows-exactly-where-hamas-is-73d0491fa437
In watching that clip of Naftali Bennet it was simply wild to see him compare Gazans to Nazis. Looking at some of his stuff on Google, that appears to be one of his go-to rationales. There are no Gazan Panzer divisions about to roll into Tel Aviv after an Anschluss by the Gazan air force, and it is pretty obvious that there never will be.
Projection is such a routine thing these days, but he is in the process of jumping the shark for all to see.
Since nobody on influence and authority will call Bennet on it, does it matter?
My thought was that Bennet was hoping to get the presenter to respond by comparing the Israelis themselves to Nazis, as the Israelis are the ones running a concentration camp. Then of course the presenter would have been fired immediately.
But the presenter handled himself very well I thought.
Also, did Bennet invite outsiders to deliver power and aid to Gaza? He should be taken up on that offer by outside countries.
Israel have a track record of attacking aid shipments to Palestine, this is from 2010, I doubt much has changed since, other than (per Mersheimer) demographics and ideology have made them even more virulently anti-Arab in the intervening years. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/31/israeli-attacks-gaza-flotilla-activists
Every time there’s talk of collective punishment against the Palestinians, I want to know why no one brings up the collective punishment forced upon the Jews in every Muslim country. Nearly all “Arab” Jews (Jews who lived in Muslim countries for centuries) have all been forced out and their property confiscated. In the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, it’s only the Palestinians who call for a world-wide intifada against all Jews. You do not see Jews in other countries random attacking Palestinians. Oh, and let us not forget that the Palestinians are not interested in a two-state solution. Their stated aim is to have one state with no Jews in it.
*sarcasm
I was expressing the attitude of those perpetrating this war crime (too mild a term. Monstrosity is better). The impunity those people enjoy is infuriating!
“You do not see Jews in other countries random attacking Palestinians…”
Because they don’t need to.
Same with all your other attempts to muddy the waters.
what countries?
do they treat christians and Hindus differently?
if I took a lucrative job in the kingdom I would not bring in scotch, or gin
shame on israel a terror state!
Really, seems Iranian Jews love living in Iran and will not leave. They have representation in the Parliament.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/world/inside-iran/2018/08/29/iran-jewish-population-islamic-state/886790002/
Maybe not all Muslim countries are the same.
What can you say about the treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by Israelis?
Did the Palestinians do that?
If not, what exactly is your point supposed to be here?
Huh? As we like to say around here, “Links please!”
I have never heard that jews were intimidated by their neighbors, anywhere in the muslim world. What evidence do you have of this? Christians have had more historical “beef” with jews. (400ad-1945ad) Not muslims.
You have to provide an example of this. Please.
The real message out of this for a rogue country is to get nuclear capacity as fast as possible, they you can do whatever the hell you want, all international rules, treaties, understandings, pacts are now meaningless
I’m so disgusted with the country I live in right now, I can’t even watch the news. I get up today, my partner left the tv on darn it, and the first thing I see before I managed to turn it off, they’re talking about how George W Bush calling for blood as if he’s somebody to be listened to. Unbelievable. He oughta be happy he wasn’t charged with war crimes himself. Every politician and presidential hopeful is lining up to foam at the mouth and spew bloodlust. Then I see people on social media upset about The Speaker™ situation. The US Capitol is probably the most disgusting place on the face of the earth, I hope they never find a speaker. All they want to do is help Israel commit genocide and flush billions down a nazi infested hellhole toilet. Rant over.
Not saying what I think of any of these names, but very interesting video can be found (title – Gaza War Day 5 – cozy tv, episode 1233) a couple of days ago with Nicholas Fuentes critiquing Ben Shapiro critiquing Tucker Carlson (who was interviewing Vivek R.) on each’s U.S. perspective of the matter.
My take: not my circus, not my clowns.
Thank you for this post.
OK, I think what we are dealing with here is a mouthful entitled “Protocol III to the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects” which Israel has acceded to but not ratified. The text is here. This is the Protocol against “Incendiary Weapons,” and the question is whether, in customary international law, it would be an offence to use white phosphorous at all. The text says that prohibited weapons do not include “(m)unitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems.” My impression is that white phosphorous probably falls into that category.
However, this is a bit beside the point. The Geneva Conventions state clearly that “only military targets may be attacked.” Attacks on the civilian population, or which are indiscriminate in that they put that population at risk, are forbidden whatever the weapon used.
In full agreement. Commenters here with artillery background (redleg, I think?) have noted that white phosphorous is not necessarily much worse than “conventional” rounds (I imagine debating the properties of different explosives is liable to muddy up a lot of things) then proceeded to make the same point you raised: the real problem is not so much which side is using what kind of shells, but that they are knowingly and willfully shooting into civilian areas which is a war crime regardless of what kind of shells they are using. I think people getting into details about specific types of weapons and whether X is a war crime or not (and implicitly conceding that using Z (!=X) is not) is a dangerous argument and should not be raised if the point is to condemn the “real” war crime.
Targeting civilians is a war crime. Collective punishment is a war crime.
A WP wound is probably worse that a fragmentation wound from an HE round, but what’s the point of qualitatively analyzing wounds when the focus should be on preventing wounds in the first place, i.e. ending and preventing wars. I don’t understand how the focus is not on preventing and ending war, documenting and prosecuting the obvious war crimes such as targeting civilians, but is instead pointing at use of WP as THE war crime when it isn’t. It’s like the few anti-war advocates with a megaphone are intentionally and willfully discrediting themselves.
Targeting was my MF-ing job. I know the weapons and the rules in minute detail. Factual errors propagated in a cause I support only makes the cause less effective. These wars need to stop before is too late.
Exactly, wrt “antiwar advocates with megaphones” shouting nonsense that distracts.
I wonder if the ICC judges will issue arrest warrants for Netanyahu and the rest of Israeli government? This may not be on the same level as taking kids to summer art camps like Putin did, but certainly Israel is violating the article 7 of the Rome statutes.
And sometimes you just need to keep up appearances of impartiality and try to deflect accusations of Euro-centricism….
I’m not try to thread jack here because all aspects of current events need to be reported and discussed, but I cannot help but conclude that at some point here much of the world is almost unknowingly edging towards what we call total war.
Total war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
I feel like our elites are sleep walking much of the world into a real ugly situation. I guess I get to go back and read up on how WW1 started, and how those elites just assumed it would be no big deal.
As much as the guy was a complete ba$tard, I wouldn’t mind having a current day equivalent of Kissinger running around trying to make a deal and put a lid on this thing, but our current elites seem to be picking sides like this is going to be some sort of kindergarten playground fight with little to no regard to the long term consequences to even their own country.
…..also, apparently due to the demographic profile of the Palestinians in the Gaza concentration camp, about half of the population is under 20 years old. So with the West & anyone under their influence giving carte blanche to the carpet bombing of 2,3 million trapped in a cage, they are effectively assuming all adults are combatants & additionally killing ~ a million children or babies, who are clearly not. It will be interesting then to see how they will be received from now on when Westeners go around the world hypocritically continuing to preach about ‘democracy, freedom, good christian values, peace & how to be civilised vs savages’.
That reminds me of the infamous Madeleine Albright reply to the question is the deaths of half a million Iraqi children worth the price? “we think the price is worth it”
People who have been exposed to evil* as victims, always run the risk of becoming their abusers and inflicting evil on others. It is the saddest consequence of victimisation.
[evil* = anyone who purposefully hurts others physically or emotionally or financially due to sadistic tendencies(getting pleasure out of the pain of others) or vindictiveness (getting revenge on others for real or imagined sins) or entitlement (I am entitled to take everything you have)].
And the largest known group of victims exposed to evil in the 20th century were those killed, and their surviving families and friends, in the nazi genocidal concentration camps in WWII.
And a great many surviving relatives and friends and descendants live in Israel today. Their history means they have run the risk of becoming what hurt them. They have risked becoming genocidal themselves.
And since Israeli people keep voting for a government that has mercilessly dispossed and killed another ethnic group over the past decades, then it can be argued that they have indeed turned into their abusers.
“I and the public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return . . .”
Use of WP munitions is not illegal per the Chemical Weapons Convention or any other of the conventions and treaties that establish the Law of War. Using WP as a general use munition does not constitute a war crime. The specific use of WP is the war crime, not using WP in general.
Certain uses of WP weapons are illegal, such as using an incendiary munition (WP is one) against civilians like what Israel is doing right now. That’s a war crime. Firing WP at a military target is not.
Keep in mind that Israel cutting off power and water to Gaza is also a war crime. There are a whole litany of war crimes being committed by Israel right now, but simply using WP munitions to conduct combat operations is not one of them.
Please refer to CWC Article II Section 9 ( c) for where WP is not prohibited. I desperately want these wars to stop, but calling WP munitions “illegal” or “banned” is factually wrong.
Side note: can anyone link to reliable figures for the population of Gaza? Mercouris insists on 3.5 million; most other sources I pay attention to say 2 million.
Well, the CIA fact-book says 2 million (2023 estimate) — surely one can always believe the CIA…
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#people-and-society
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East estimates 2.1 million.
Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics estimates 2.17 million – in 2022, with 4% growth rate it would be 2.25 now.
Sorry for not linking, my phone’s copy & paste kinda sucks.
Cheers!
The figure in the press is 2.2 or 2.25 million.
An archive of the hippie-era information resource par excellence — the Whole Earth Catalog and daughter publications (CoEvolution Quarterly / Whole Earth Review et cetera) — is now online:
https://wholeearth.info
https://www.wired.com/story/whole-earth-catalog-now-online-internet-archive/
Oopsie, off-topic, sorry, everyone — this was supposed to go onto Water Cooler as a general FYI.
The only viable option to solve this problem is the two state solution. If not on the table, however, there is broad international support and it should be reiterated at every opportunity.
The crucial issue is Israel’s foreign policy which is committed to the pursuit of a greater Israel and which is enabled by US support. Israel’s border must be defined and a Palestinian State created in Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem.
Accusing Israelis of racism and war crimes or the Palestinians of terrorism and war crimes, regardless of any evidence, will do nothing. Starving people is not new as the British blockade of Germany in WW1 attempted to do just that. But when you’re at the point of dropping white phosphorus on human beings and killing civilian hostages then something needs to be done.
The details over security and a Gaza-West Bank corridor can be more easily negotiated when the goal is peace and stability. Above all, pressure has to come from Americans to force their own government to fully support the two state solution.
If I was the King of something,
My starting point for negotiations would INSIST on the state/country of ISREAL be “un-chartered”, and be called “Palestine” once again.
I would start the negotiation with the isreali’s that they have lost the moral right to HAVE a jewish state, since they have abused the power every decade since the zionist terrorists made the deal with the british colonialists in 1948.
I would advance an idea that maybe the palestinians should once again rule their homeland. With the express concern that they allow the jews to live there, and be treated as equals. Maybe the palestinians are better people than the zionists, and would peacefullt co-exist with these immigrants to their country.
then on the way during the negotiation, the last possible way the isreali’s could “hold onto anything”, would be to allow the UN peace-keepers to control the interior of the country of palestine, and no jewish only police could be created to oppress the “rightful” members of the region.
Israel made a series of unforced errors this past week.
I’d be surprised if the country still exists in its current form by 2030.
Unlikely, the US (& obviously their European vassals) would go without food before they’d let their favourite child run out of all the lethal weaponry its heart desires…..