By Lambert Strether of Corrente.
With “Rumble in the Jungle” in the headline, I had hoped to present the terrific When We Were Kings:
It’s 1974, Muhammad Ali is 32 and thought by many to be past his prime. George Foreman is ten years younger and the Heavyweight champion of the world. Promoter Don King wants to make a name for himself and offers both fighters five million dollars apiece to fight one another… in Kinshasa, Zaire: the “Rumble in the Jungle” between champion George Foreman and challenger Muhammad Ali. In historical footage and new interviews, this documentary explores the relationship between African-Americans and the African continent during the Black Power era in terms of both popular culture and international politics.
(Ali first deployed his famous “rope-a-dope” tactic in this match.) In any case, while it pains me to compare Ali to, well, another candidate, this puffery from When We Were Kings does seem familiar somehow:
[ALI:] It is befitting that I leave the game just like I came in, beating a big bad monster who knocks out everybody and no one can whup him. That’s when little Cassius Clay from Louisville, Kentucky, came up to stop Sonny Liston. The man who annihilated Floyd Patterson twice. HE WAS GONNA KILL ME! But he hit harder than George. His reach is longer than George’s. He’s a better boxer than George. And I’m better now than I was when you saw that 22-years old undeveloped kid running from Sonny Liston. I’m experienced now, professional. Jaws been broke, been knocked down a couple of times, I’m bad! Been chopping trees. I done something new for this fight. I done wrestled with an alligator. That’s right. I have wrestled with an alligator. I done tussled with a whale. I done handcuffed lightning, thrown thunder in jail. That’s bad! Only last week I murdered a rock, injured a stone, hospitalised a brick! I’m so mean I make medicine sick!
Don King: Bad dude!
Muhammad Ali: Bad, fast! Fast! Fast! Last night I cut the light off in my bedroom, hit the switch and was in the bed before the room was dark.
In any case, for those who came in right at 8:30pm and want something to watch, here’s Ali vs Foreman–The Rumble In The Jungle, presented by ESPN Classic, and narrated by Dr. Ferdie Pacheco (Ali’s cornerman):
I don’t see any point in attempting to predict the course of the debate; as readers know, I’m a proponent of the idea that volatility is the central feature of this election, despite all efforts to keep things stable, and it follows that the debate will be volatile (then, of course, given the composition of the moderation panel, the debate could turn into a slugfest on which candidate supports Israel the mostest, which would, of course, be volatile in its own way). The conventional wisdom is that the dichotomy to watch is Biden’s cognitive function vs. Trump’s tendency to be an [glass bowl]. But presumably the staffs for both candidates have prepared them for this (and Trump actually seems to be listening to his); perhaps Biden will recite the first ten digits of π, and then challenge Trump to recite the next ten, “as any serious candidate would be able to do”; or Trump might, with touching sincerity, share his sympathy for Hunter Biden’s troubles — Dear Hunter! — with the father figure behind the other podium. Maybe Biden pivots to the greatness of Lina Khan! Maybe Trump asks Biden to draw a clock — and he does! “What’s your number gonna be in jail, Donald?” “54-46!” We just don’t know!
What I will be watching for — besides, I admit it, waiting for Biden to slip a cog or an “Oh, the humanity!” moment from Trump, plus both debaters duking it out, blow-by-blow, ZOMG the spectacle!! — will be how the candidates appeal, or have been managed or chivvied into appealing, to the small numbers of persuadable voters in the swing states (and from their appeals, perhaps to reverse engineer the future course of the race). For some reason, I’ve been watching Moneyball clips lately; this is an especially good one: “People who run ball clubs, they think in terms of buying players. Your goal shouldn’t be to buy players, your goal should be to buy wins. And in order to buy wins, you need to buy runs.” Those small numbers of persuadable voters are the runs.
In any case, here are the details once again (from Indian Express, amazingly, more coherent than CNN):
How long will the debate be?
Ninety minutes, starting at 9 p.m. Eastern time, with two commercial breaks. That is a normal length for a presidential debate, but the commercial breaks are noteworthy: General-election debates in past cycles, sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates rather than an individual news organization, did not have them.The candidates will not be allowed to talk to their aides during the commercial breaks, but they will have time to take a breather and collect themselves in a way they would not have in past years.
Will there be an in-person audience?
No. The candidates will debate in a CNN studio with no live audience.
How will the candidates be positioned?
They will stand at lecterns. Biden won a coin toss to choose his spot, and he will be on the right side of viewers’ TV screens.
Will there be opening and closing statements?
Opening statements, no; closing statements, yes.
The order of the closing statements was determined by a coin toss. Biden will make his first, and Trump will have the last word of the debate.
How long will the candidates have to answer questions?
CNN will allow two minutes for each answer and one minute for rebuttals. The moderators, CNN hosts Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, will be able to grant extra time at their discretion.
How will the moderators prevent interruptions?
The candidates’ microphones will be muted when it isn’t their turn to speak. That was another Biden request, intended to guard against Trump’s penchant for interrupting and speaking over debate opponents.
And here is CNN’s “How to Watch” page. I assume something will show up there at the appropriate time (and what a mess the CNN site is, to be sure; a maze of twisting corridors all alike). CNN will also show the match on YouTube.
I will be curious to observe how JRB moves his hands tonight, assuming that he does. It has seemed to me in recent weeks (the incident in which BHO guided JRB off a stage and a YouTube advert — “Look, I’ll cut the malarkey” — that is repeatedly served to me during Alexander Mercouris commentaries) that there is something odd about the way that JRB moves his arms and hands, as if they are nearly inert. Lambert doesn’t like video diagnoses and I am not qualified to hold an opinion, but something seems “off” lately.
> I will be curious to observe how JRB moves his hands tonight,
Your conclusion?
After the first few minutes, I stopped looking for this as the camera was close up, and I switched to “listen only” mode so I could type, but I did see the walk on.
JRB swung his arms independently on the walk on, which was better than the video in which BHO guided him off stage — then his arms were hanging lifeless, with the backs of the hands weirdly oriented forward from what I think of as “normal” ( the back of the hand parallel to the sides of the legs)
He was moving his hands independently, too, during the walk on. This is a lot less inert than the “I’ll cut the malarkey” advert that spooked me (in that, the hands were inert, all gestural motion was from flexion at the elbows). Maybe he’s just stiff from old age.
FYI— You can watch the debate on X @Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and hear Bobby’s responses to the questions assuming the stream goes live on X
therealdebate.com for Bobby’s commentary
Anywhere Cornel West and Jill Stein will be?
Jill Stein will be doing a debate response apparently, on X, Facebook, and youtube. Here’s the youtube link if curious: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEqZTSHm8wHE-F2OukJKCSQ/community?lb=Ugkx6J5y1IHxhtXlF6CeIZX-ACzaO7_aVpzq
Thanks Lambert. So thankful you host these debate livestreams.
I decided to punish myself and watch this. There will be drinking games. Against my wishes I’m even going click on CNN just so I see their feed. No way, no how do I want to see the pre-game going on right now.
Recliner, laptop, 2nd screen, and sound box. Had to test it and it took about 8 seconds to hit the mute button. Erin Burnett and Gavin Newsome gushing over Biden.
I have no idea what I’m about to see and hear, and it might be pretty silly. These people run our county. I’m glad I’m old.
Adding; thanks for this (and all you do) Lambert!
Other networks will be simulcasting the cnn feed. Also, cspan is re-broadcasting a few times if anyone wants to watch it again! Lambert span will probably have a transcript.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?536407-1/simulcast-cnn-presidential-debate
> transcript
Maybe I can make more Wordles!
Huh. The Rumble.dotcom site is currently down. Odd. / ;)
https://downdetector.com/status/rumble/
I hate the set:
Makes it appear the Bash/Tapper are judges or representatives.
Dark times get themselves reflected in dark sets. But don’t forget the motto of the Washington Post – ‘Democracy Dies in Darkness’ and that is what is happening here.
Game of Thrones: Dark wings, dark words.
Modern Amerca: Dark times, dark sets.
Reminds me of that awful JJ Abrams Star Trek movie.
You mean Jar Jar Abrams of course.
Why not CGI holograms & dispense with Likud’s senile, suppurating MICIMATT meat puppets altogether? Jim Carrey did Biden FAR more believably & you could pile up rotting lunch meat with a Cheez Whiz combover for Cheeto Hitler. We’d watched S4E2 of “Babylon Berlin,” stoned instead. It’s prettier, funnier & more self-aware?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KNfDUZQBWZ3gicQt7
30 seconds in, and Biden lies about the bleach story. He’s also quite hoarse.
Hoarse, coughing, and a lot of mumbled words and phrases right out of the gate. Trump crystal clear and calm.
Joe looks and sounds terrible. I can’t watch it though, just walked by the living room where daughter and wife are watching.
> just walked by the living room where daughter and wife are watching.
What did they think?
JRB was hard to understand and mumbled a lot, but DJT lied lied lied and looked mean (wife has a bad case of the TDS but she did admit both were terrible).
Daughter reports it hurt her ears because they had to turn the volume up so loud to hear Joe’s mumbling.
It seems like the title should have been: “Mumble in the Jungle”
More like the Foreman Grill era George Foreman (the salesman) vs. brain damaged Ali rumble.
You all have fun.
The bong is loaded with CBD flower, so I think I can handle the commentary.
Thanks Lambert.
I didn’t think the debate would happen at all. Now I owe Parker a hundred bucks.
Trump says more people dying from Covid under Biden (true) and the mandates were a disaster (true).
The moderators, of course, follow up on the deficit.
9:12… BIden slips….
B: “[slipping cogs] We finally beat Medicare.”
T: “He beat it do death.”
I think Trump senses weakness…
If Biden looks bad out of the gate, wonder if this is set up/allowed by Dems to replace Biden.
Cutting off the light and getting in bed before the room is dark . . . I remember reading that Satchell Paige said he could do the same thing.
And in the age of incandescent lights, when you turned the light off, it cooled down and darkened quickly but not instantly. So I can see where it would be possible for someone fast enough and with the bed close enough to the light switch to cut off the power to the incandescent bulb and hit the bed before it had cooled all the way down and totally darkened.
I think he said that about Cool Papa Bell. Yes, baseball nerd here.
Anyway, this thread is my only contact with this “debate” and I thank all of NC for taking this one for the team that just can’t!
Split screen doesn’t favor Biden
Neither one of these guys can string together a focused coherent argument. Biden just dropped his train of thought. Trump has trouble finishing a sentence before moving on to his next thought. I weep for this country.
Nobody will cut Trump any slack but folks with ADHD will see themselves in this.
Since I am at lunch and have to get back to work soon, I am not able to watch the debate in realtime.
So I will have to watch it on playback after work, if it is on the web somewhere to watch it on playback.
When Joe Biden Voted to Let States Overturn Roe v. Wade
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/us/politics/biden-abortion-rights.html
Biden looks ill. This is not going to help him.
Jm-
I hear ya. So fricking dystopian/dysfunctional.
Theodore Postol can string together a coherent argument. “MIT Nuclear Expert DIRE WARNING On Ukraine Escalation”. He went on the yt platform Breaking Point a day ago.
US isn’t letting millions of people in and putting them on Medicare and Social Security. That Northam statement was about palliative care for newborns who weren’t viable outside the womb. He just says stuff.
As grandfather to a surviving Preemie you are wrong!
The different view between respect for life and callow disregard for humanity is evident!
Of course, true believers will see what they will.
OMG Biden is DONE. Word salad times1,000!
> OMG Biden is DONE
I’m trying to remember the last time he was in public. The hoarseness…
My gut is they did “debate prep” and he yelled at his minders. The best strategy would be to let Biden lie and expect the moderators to not care.
I’m not sure I can make it through the whole thing. I am finding this painful to watch.
I was watching on C-SPAN2. Had to turn it off.
I drive to work with one of my sons who I drop off at his college and often I tune into NPR to hear 35 -50% of a news story. (“Hi Ellen”. “Hi Page.”) I insisted we watch this spectacle live so we can compare what the media tells us versus what we heard and saw with our own lying ears and eyes.
The Tiktok feed he was following was fun to watch.
Trump on a roll but calling him Brandon hits a sour note I think
9:23pm Trump seizes control from a moderator. “He’s the one….”
Absolutely pathetic
I am more interested in how they are doing at the end than what they are saying at the start. This may not be a marathon but even an hour at the podium is wearing.
Yes.
9:26pm Biden plays the Beau card.
On the suckers and losers quote, see here from the Indian Express:
Meanwhile, Biden following the Beau card seems more energized; successfully numbering his points, etc.
He’s right though about the legislation. Cruz was caught making jokes on the floor regarding the burn pits and voting against it. Ghoulish even by his standards.
Cruz backtracked and ultimately voted for it shortly afterwards. He said he voted initially against it because of Democrat pork spending attached to the bill.
Why can’t Biden close his mouth when he’s not speaking? He looks so demented.
Lots of B-roll footage of Biden like that at public events….but you won’t see it on CNN or NBC at 6:30p.
It’s only on anti-Dem. social media, C-SPAN, and B-roll footage from non-US, non-Western European news (who didn’t get the memo to cast Biden in a flattering light, lol)
I’m waiting for Biden to fall off the stage. And Trump to say something true and intelligent.
Waiting for a miracle, are you?
> And Trump to say something true and intelligent
He said Biden killed more people with Covid than he did. He was right.
A lot of word salad from DJT on foreign policy, but he does have a point that JRB’s foreign policy has not had auspicious results.
JRB might be projecting with the charge that DJT have VVP a blank check
I was especially interested in their remarks on foreign policy. It was completely worthless. Of course Biden couldn’t say anything worthwhile. But Trump wimped out on Ukraine, and purposely avoided saying anything of substance about Israel. His mantra was money – the Europeans need to foot more of the bill for NATO. But otherwise nothing worthwhile about Ukraine. And of course Russia wouldn’t have dared attack Ukraine, nor Hamas Israel, if Trump were president. Biden, of course, was warning about Putin’s desire to conquer Europe and the world. Worthless macho bulls**t as usual.
If Joe had a lobotomy before the debate, would we be able to know the difference?
He sounds like he may have had a stroke recently. Slurred speech, struggling with phonics.
Parkinsons
Parkinson’s Disease with Dementia (PDD) is my guess. Starts with movement disorder (including rigidity, stiffness, freezing up, lack of facial expression), then dementia develops. Also speech and vision problems (including hallucinations – look, a chair!). Unlike Alzheimer’s, there are variations in the level of cognitive alertness during a given day or from day to day.
I am sitting in the living room of a big Dem donor. At an event having nothing to do with politics. There are a few dozen other people here. After about 5 minutes or so of everyone watching, a few episodes of word salad, looking a bit confused, the TV was turned off.
We started the rest of business for the evening with the Dem donor stating, “I do not care what the rest of the time looks like. This is a nuclear disaster for the party. I see no way around having to pull him.”
I have done all I could do for years now to warn every Dem I knew about the obvious dementia issues. They all chose to go with the DNC plans. The Dem party left me years ago in the smoking heap known as Obamacare. I wish them all good luck.
The quinnipiac poll today is showing Trump with a solid 4 point lead and the minority breakdowns should terrify any Dem.
I look back on debates and conventions as a 9 year old with my granddad and father making me understand what was going on.
I have been robbed of that privilege of being the elder in the family. I would never dream of watching this with my own kids. Their country’s future on one side a literal dementia patient grifter, the other a psychopathic clown show grifter.
Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin. Alas! Alas! O Babylon, the Lord thy God has measured you and found you wanting. Thy day of judgment is at hand.
literal dementia patient grifter, the other a psychopathic clown show grifter
Scary, and so true. . .
> Mene Tekel Upharsin
I just read Daniel 5. It reminds me of The Masque of the Red Death. Verse 4 strikes:
IM Doc, first thank you for everything.
There will be a lot of people like that “big donor” to the Democrats, for whom the scales are (finally?) lifted. But there will also be a whole lot of last-ditchers who will be loyal to “The President” no matter what, because you *never* change horses blah blah blah. And when those come-late-to-Jesus realists raise their voices that Biden must be “replaced”, they will raise a furious counter-reaction from the loyalists. And there opens a rift among the Democrats which will not heal this year.
I’d bet we’re on track to see the lowest turnout in history this fall.
It is difficult to comprehend the toxic selfishness of JRB. At what point and will the man EVER put country over self?
Gallows consolation, but that section of the Bible served as the basis for the fantastic choral piece Belshazaar’s Feast by William Walton, one of the most over-the-top spectacles every produced. Requires a double chorus (8 voices rather than 4) a double brass chorus, a harp and an elephant…..no, sorry, that’s Aida. When it was performed at Carnegie Hall, they didn’t have enough room on stage and had to put some of the musicians in the nearest balcony boxes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBQmXDnSXVI
And across his catalogue of works, Walton is the composer who never disappoints. From the “Big Tune” splendour of his Coronation marches, to the virtuosity of his concerti, to his peerless word-setting as found in Belshazaar’s Feast, there’s something for every music buff.
Sorry, guys, but his music just brings out the proud Britishness in me.
Oh my God, I’d say this is Carter 2.0 but that would insult Jimmy Carter.
He looks exhausted, hoarse from over preparation.
Proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free! /s
Kennedy being added to this debate would have made it something of substance possibly.
Kennedy is on therealdebate.com, replying to the questions
Biden’s voice is very very week, Trump’s is strong
That’s what matters. Presence and projection.
Trump is lying continually but that will be overruled by his presence and decisiveness.
Trump is shockingly following the rules so far too.
Yes, exactly. They are both lying continuously. But if Trump can keep his cool he will accomplish what he needs to. This debate won’t change any partisan minds (unless Biden melts down completely before the end). But if Trump maintains he may win over a few undecideds.
Kakistocracy here we come!
A new word for me. It certainly fits for describing the situation.
Trump making a ridiculous statement that Russia wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine had he been President. It’s always about him.
No mention of Biden and Burisma, Ukrainian corruption, our history of lies from NATO promising not to expand eastward, no root causes, just attacking Biden. Missed opportunity.
Biden stammering through an incomprehensible response. Neither one answered the question until the moderator reminded Trump. These guys are just sad.
I’m convinced Biden gave the okay to end the separatists to announce a NATO expansion for the campaign ala Bill Clinton in 96, to look tough. There would be no invasion because the red line wouldn’t be crossed.
Jake Tapper just addressed DJT as “Former President Trump”.
I don’t think I’ve heard that from DB.
Trying to lean on the scale?
A Canadian astrologer I follow said months ago, Joe will fold by September, by reading his chart. I don’t gamble but thought I should place a bet in Vegas.
I follow an astrologer who is guessing that there will be a contingent election. Nobody gets 270, house and Senate choose. I found that to be a very specific prediction that intrigues me. Biden dropping out on September would facilitate that.
I stopped drinking so I won’t be watching. I would need a bottle in front of me, or in me, or something…. :-/
Y’all do it so I don’t have to.
I’d rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy!
Me for the lobotomy. Alcohol wears of, what’s up with that?
FOr a debate like this, one needs non-alcoholic beverage. I’m drinking strong tea. Later many potty breaks, but no headache.
I noticed in the “pre-game” that there were more ads for hard liquor than before a sporting event. I prefer to be stoned with the sound muted.
Big whopper from Joe. Lies about the fraudulent Blinken plan that Netanyahu repudiated. First mention of “my three phase plan for Israel” – Bingo!
JRB, “such a whiner that he is”. — that strikes me as a valid zinger.
JRB gets to the salacious charges
Only in America: “I didn’t have sex with a porn star.”
(on 2nd thought, WJC said something like this, too)
> “I didn’t have sex with a porn star.”
Trump can’t deliver on anything!
Anyone watching this with the sound off, like at work, at the airport, etc., must come away with the clear, unambiguous impression that Biden is demented, right?
Yeah. I thought he often looked worse even than he sounded.
Watching on youtube with closed captioning on. CC alto having problems keeping up with Biden. “Karen Swasticas” is gonna be a band name within a week.
Er, algo no alto
That’s a beaut!
Even with the sound off, I had to stop … too painful.
If JRB’s assertion is true that most of DJT’s high appointees have declined to endorse his 2024 run, that strikes as a valid point.
I get the sense that JRB is switching gears in mid-thought, but I think DJT does that too, though a bit more fluidly.
Valid point but do people ever vote for Trump b/c of credentials. This valid point, if even true, earns Joe 0 new votes
I think it reflects more on Trumps’ poor judgment and bad hires than anything. Pompeo, Bolton, Haley, a whole cast of neocon freaks and retreads.
And Pence. I guess he technically wasn’t an appointee, but like others, he was brought in to appease “establishment” GOP…
From where I sat, Biden ran to counter Sanders. Subjective view.
Is anybody else’s feed breaking up a lot? I count four resets so far, one with a color test image.
Also, Trump is effective by making facial commentary while Biden speaks. Biden’s body language is subdued. Senators practice not grimacing at each other (or used to..).
Facial expressions are considered bad form in traditional debate. Part of Trump’s thing is the subversion of “norms”. If the establishment jumps on him for it tomorrow, so much the better.
[commercial break]
Biden makes a good point that none of Trump’s cabinet officers support him. “Why?”
It seems to me, though, that the heart of Biden’s presentation/affect is a savage and deeply personal loathing for Trump as a person (“The idea….”) That’s not unique to Biden, but it’s also not a justification for Biden being President.
Also, not Trump’s constant repetition of “our country” (see Wordle diagrams here).
Because Trump got hoodwinked onto nominating individuals who did not share his vision in the first place? (See Mattis refusing Trump’s orders to withdraw troops from Syria)
Is Trump capable of learning from this remains a valid question. Self reflection does not appear to be one of Trump’s strong suits
This is horrible even with Lynchburg Lemonades. Picked a bad week to quit drinking.
Bad week to give up sniffing glue
BIden just said Trump caused inflation by his “malfeasance in handling the pandemic.” That can only mean the CARES Act, which actually reduced poverty.
Thanks for watching so others don’t have to. Did I hear JRB say “America is the world’s greatest economy” earlier?
yeah, people really hated those relief checks… people named larry summers…
I don’t like the rapid-fire format. It encourages the speakers to simplify and exaggerate.
DJT seems, IMO, to be a more facile and glib exaggerator. JRB is much clumsier.
” We had it, ..H2O”
It’s kind of fun listening to this, if you can just laugh at it.
Trump gives Tim Scott a big plug (for “opportunity zones,” yech). Hmm.
I picked Scott a while back. Trump needs someone who stays in his shadow and he wants to own the libs by getting the POC vote.
What a sh*T show. Biden is incoherent. Trump exaggerates and lies. This is our choice unless there’s a third party candidate on the ballot that you like, but who can’t win. Not sure what the solution is. Getting involved in party politics as many did in supporting Bernie Sanders has turned out to be a severe disappointment.
These CNN bastards rigged the rules to keep RFK Jr. out.
New Biden word salad: “corporate races that collude to keep black families out”
I knew that thanks to our wonderful Supreme Court corporations are people, but now they have races, too?
JRB’s intended meaning may have been “corporate racists“.
Is he talking about the old practice of “red-lining”?
If this is still going on, it would have been a great thing for the JRB Justice Department to have been looking in to over the last 3.5 years. (Not actually doing anything about, mind you, but al least looking like “fighting for” equity.)
Trump’s EPA did nothing on forever chemicals and sat on issuing further recommendations.
Not true! His administration innovated with respect to companies not having to report chemicals they’re producing which have environmental effects. Winning! #godhelpusall
I could solve that issue on Day One.
All 3M and DuPont/Chemours Execs, C-suiters and BODs from the last 50 years go to prison for life. Half the market cap and future earnings into perpetuity of these companies are severed to pay for remediation, natural resource damages, bodily injury, property damage / loss of use / loss of value, mitigation measures for water supplies and waste water treatment.
I wouldn’t have to be president, merely a jury foreman.
Full Disclosure: I’m not ‘Minnesota Nice’
Nobody else ever mentions the decades of criminality of the individuals at these companies.
You do realize that you would be labeled a Marxist who hates America?
Trump said he has the best environmental numbers ever. Thar’s hard to believe.
Biden can’t let go of “the idea.” Who says that? Granny?
Please Vladimir Vladimirovich just one Kinzhal to Atlanta. Just one. Please make it stop.
That would provoke an immediate nuclear response.
Stop saying foolish and inane things.
I challenge you to a golf match.
He is fat.
Who is innane here?
Perhaps not wholly foolish or inane, given that immediate destruction of Biden and Trump seems to be the only hope for the Democrats to win in November!
Vlad, Xi and Kim …and dozens of others…trying not to laugh themselves to death.
How do they spin this?
They’d both be admitted to a psych ward if the police rolled up on them yelling at each other like this.
I checked in for a few minutes just to assess the Biden enfeeblement level. Assuming he is max-juiced for the debate and therefore his normal level is much worse….sheesh! I worked for many years caring for dementia patients and recognise it in him so clearly.
Either the DNC defenestrates him or they want to lose in November
“Creak …” Hillary opens a 4th story window, slyly backs away, and makes a phone call.
I had to look up the meaning of defenstrate a while ago. It sure is a delightful word. I always think about how modern buildings don’t have windows that open, and why that is.
It seems Joe is going to be falling out a window sooner rather than later.
> It seems Joe is going to be falling out a window sooner rather than later.
“The Defenestration of Atlanta.”
I’m watching the CBS analysis after the debate and one of the panelists said that panic has set in after the debate and some party electeds are saying that Biden should step down. Let’s see what kinds of stories come out over the next couple days.
Good point by Biden on SSI income tax. It’s the single most regressive income tax on the planet because it’s a flat tax capped at a relatively low level.
Neither party has put forth a serious reform effort though on SSI reform in the last 5 years.
The Democrats lifted the income tax cap on Medicare payroll tax in 1992 and it was one of the reasons they got slaughtered in the 1994 midterms.
I have the impression that the logic behind the cap on payroll taxes is that benefits are capped too. To remove the cap on payments in would, within the logic of the system (where payout is proportional, approximately, to pay-in), also result in much higher retirement benefits for highest wage-earners.
It might be better to simply fund SS deficits from general revenue.
That’s a fair point. It would potentially change the perception of Social Security by the rich from an entitlement program to maybe seen as a welfare program instead too.
> maybe seen as a welfare program instead
I think that is exactly the logic behind the pay-in/pay-out proportionality. It’s a universal concrete benefit but not a redistribution program (which is also an argument against funding the SS deficit from general revenue. But with appropriate MMT framing, I think that objection could be finessed)
Sorry but this is a “pet peeve” of mine. SSI is a (relatively minor) welfare program, not old age/survivor insurance, or disability insurance funded through nominal trust funds.
DId JRB just attribute the strength of US economy to the influx of cheap immigrant labor?
Biden just scored on Social Security for me – make the millionaires pay their fair share! Good talking point. Says the House Republican caucus wants to cut SS, which they do. But he’s now BSing about how good our health care is.
Trump responds by hauling out immigrants again – they’re going to take all our Social Security while we let our veterans starve! Total evasion of the question. Mostly name calling by both of them though. And hilariously, they keep coming back to the General who accused Trump of calling dead soldiers “suckers” or something and arguing back and forth about it.
I can;t believe that DJT is worse than James Buchanan.
Classic PMC: 159 historians voted Trump was the worst President. Ditto the putatative Nobel-winning economists.
If you define worse as doing the most harm to real human beings, Trump isn’t even the worst president of the 21st century…or the second worst…and given Gaza an Ukraine, maybe not not even third worst. And I think he’s a scumbag grifter who I would never consider supporting.
Doesn’t count if they’re foreigners.
Trump appeals for my vote by not starting a war, granted he did allow Ukraine to bomb the Donbas.
Trump keeps going back to illegal immigration, but I just don’t think most people really care about that. I live in Chicago, and yeah, it’s been a burden for the city to find a place for bused-in immigrants, but we’re trying to figure it out. That said, it’s nowhere on my radar as a voting issue.
Trump keeps saying “our copy is being destroyed by immigrants,” but I don’t think most people give a fig about that. Or at least put it way down on their list of issues.
> Trump keeps going back to illegal immigration
It’s Trump’s magic explanation for everything. I don’t know who buys it, and I should know. (I know the national polling, but I think that’s just a Keynesian beauty contest.)
It matters a lot to voters in PA especially white voters and black voters.
It may not impact them directly in any way (at least white voters) but they are less than thrilled about it for several reasons.
Trump knows that and it matters in Michigan and Wisconsin a lot too.
> It matters a lot to voters in PA especially white voters and black voters.
Latino immigration is big in PA, I think because PA is a supply chain hub with a lot of warehouses, but the question is whether there are a lot of Latino voters in PA, and how that nets out.
Immigration is a potent political issue in any place that got destroyed by NAFTA. A candidate who merely telegraphs opposition to it doesn’t need to say anything coherent about it to get the message across to those he’s trying to reach.
I’m in a Midwestern rust belt state. People here talk about illegal immigration a lot. Like a whole lot. They blame it for the loss of good paying jobs and higher crime, true or not. They also blame it for the opioid crisis, true or not. They even blame it for lack of affordable housing and for lousy healthcare: “Illegals are living in luxury housing and getting free medical care that Americans should be getting!!!”
Trump has an ability to know the way people are talking and thinking. He plays to the crowd and he does it well. The truth simply doesn’t matter anymore. That goes for both sides, but Trump is a smooth liar. Biden is not, plus he has dementia, which is a bit of an obvious problem. Trump was pretty sharp tonight, even when talking nonsense.
The Dem PTB are going to have to find a way to replace Biden after tonight’s catastrophe. How they will do it and with whom will be very interesting to watch.
I’m in Hicksville, Indiana and none of the young women who were raped or murdered by the newcomers in the country were in my neighborhood, so a non-issue for me as well, using that logic.
The HeyJackass Chicago stats have been going strong since Mayor Mumbles and The Tiny Dancer were in charge, especially death year 2016.
biden looks so old this is craaaaaazy. hes just mumbling. my watch party wants to open up the democratic convention because biden is doing so bad. i wonder how much botox is on that stage right now.
‘and by the way’ trump hasn’t said anything relevant either, attacking biden instead of any good policy discussion.
this is such a joke.
Foreign policy differences between them seem fairly small except nato, and trump did bring up his issue there.
Just say “I’ll de-escalate. No WWIII.” That’s it. All I need. Make me believe that is true and you have my vote.
Both proving/confirming to be idiots. Biden’s replacement will most likely be next President. Probable strategy.
It is suspicious how they moved up the debate before the conventions. Gives both parties a possible out if they’re unhappy with the candidates.
Yes, probable strategy. Set-up (by Democrat CNN) to get rid of Biden. They have to replace him to win (and to protect Biden family from Republican retaliation/prosecution).
This is devolving into grade school name calling. Biden: Trump is the worst President in history. Historians agree – look it up! Trump: No, I’m the *best* president. Look it up, they determined that. Biden is the worst!
It’s kindergarten.
Biden got juiced during the break. Both eyes fully open and rapid speech and body movements.
The junkie needs higher doses as tolerance rises. One more commercial break and they’re gonna need to bring back the “speedball” for Joe, injected directly into the main vein.
Rocky: Cut me, Mick.
Sly innuendo that JRB is in the pocket of the Chinese.
Raymond how about a nice game of solitaire?
LOL! I think he actually used the term “Manchurian candidate,” or at least “Manchurian” something.
Brandon got juiced during the break. Both eyes fully open and rapid speech and body movements.
This is trivial: Biden keeps saying “fentanol.” It’s fentanyl.
Yeah, and WTF is a ‘fentanol machine’?
Biden is a living advertisement for one. His aides probably mistook fentanol for fentanyl, giving him a hoarse voice. I am super disappointed the Mexican cartels didn’t come through with top level stuff for the Prez of the USA.
Collum and Luongo could have been there as organic chemistry experts to catch that for Jake.
Just tuned in 10 min ago. Biden indeed looks feeble; mumbling & stumbling. Quite a different performance than at his State of the Union speech.
‘Fentonol machines’ coming across the border? WTF?
some kind of scan or chemical sniffer to detect contraband. It takes a certain amount of imagination to figure out what is intended (from both of them, IMO)
Another band name before the week is out!
Heh. Isn’t Another Band Name also another band name?
Word salad is starting to sound nutritious.
Trump beginning to babble like Biden. What has the WSJ reporter in Russia got do do with fentanyl addiction?
It takes some imagination, but I think he’s referring to an IC asset who is in RF custody for spying. Apparently DJT thinks the Rs are demanding massive cash ransom for his release. I didn’t get the references that DJT was making to JRB paying other ransoms.
Biden: Trump fired a general
That’s a selling point!
Trump just said he’d have the Wall St Journal reporter out from Russia as soon as he’s elected! Apparently Joe isn’t tough enough to face Putin down. Aaarrgh!
I would gladly vote for a president that dropped sanctions on Russia and sanctioned Kiev and London for their interference.
Trump: “We knock on wood, wherever we may have wood.” OMG!!!!
Biden — bad enough to make Trump look better
‘We Have Wood” yet another band name!
I’m one of 2.6 million watching via RFK’s virtual debate via X. He’s reacting to Trump/Biden, but each of them is light on the details of how they plan to implement, well, anything. Trump and Biden are both liars and gasbags. Can Biden seriously point to Trump’s Charlottesville remarks when he is arming Azov? Sheesh these people. Trump IMO hit Biden like a gong regarding the border. I give a slight edge to TRump this round; I felt he drew some blood on Biden COVID death toll, Afghanistan, Hunter, border. And Kennedy was ok, he’s peppy. Now for some wine….
Biden looks like a corpse
Both of them ducked the question re child care expenses. Trump dropped it by going off into immigration blather, and Biden let Trump’s monomania slide. Their preppers didn’t have childcare on the menu, and it hurt.
Child care is tough with fewer grannies around.
BIden takes Trump’s bait on golf!!!
Trump’s best moment. Loved his faces while Joe was bragging
Willy Loman 2024!
Unless any one of the candidates talks sense on covid, bird flu, Israel and Ukraine, the dread Lord Cthulhu will get my vote again this year. So, I can at least be content knowing how I’ll vote.
Will that be on commission or salary?
Trump shines when he’s dragging people into the mud. But Dana Bash to the rescue to stop the golf pissing match
Al Czervik v Judge Elihu Smales. Ty Webb wasn’t allowed in.
Golf?
That was so pathetic, a couple of hackers defending their ability.
And no mention of how either would get us out of the biggest sand trap of all; the Middle East.
Trump is as delusionsal and full of it as my dad’s friends who have multiple chronic conditions.
This is a pathetic ending to a sad and incredibly disheartening debate.
Will Trump accept election results when courts are exhausted, and is violence acceptable?
He answers seccond (no), does not answer first until later, and that with a sentence fragment.
“I wish Biden was a great President because then I wouldn’t be here.”
Bash repeats the election results question. Trump dodges.
Bash again. (After Trump on “golden cities” in the Ukraine, just like his Iraq comment; he hates destroying buildings.)
Trump: Election must be “Fair, legal, and good.”
Biden: “Not one court supported your claims. But you continue to lie. You won’t accept it because you’re a whiner. You lost and something snapped in you.”
BIden rises from the canvas to deliver a haymaker.
NOTE It’s beyond me why Trump doesn’t blames his 2020 loss on burying the Hunter Biden laptop. The talking point is right there for him. Poor staffwork.
Could not agree more with that and then the media would have to defend themselves from the charges of election interference by not digging into that story.
There’s a broom circling over Midway Airport tonight with a strange cackling sound.
“And your diamond dogs, too!”
DJT: I wish JRB were a successful president, then I wouldn’t be running and I wouldn’t be under indictment.
This is a clever tack.
DJT is right about the risk of WWIII.
JRB doubles down on the armageddon option.
DJT talks intelligently and compassionately about the situation facing Ukraine.
—
I think the JRB charge of “whiner” has an element of truth to it.
Around 10:28: Biden says he believes the domino theory, says Putin will go into Poland and Hungary (?!). This really upsets me. Clarifying I guess.
BIden really believes everybody trusts us and we have the greatest military in the world. It wouldn’t matter if this were his personal delusion, thought it is; everybody around him believes it too.
agreed. the assertions that the us is ‘strong’ and needs to ‘stand up’ are distressing me. we literally aren’t, especially militarily. the fact that both candidates are ignoring reality is painful.
Yeah, he said that earlier as well. It’s unbelievably irresponsible and disgusting. But then all Trump does is try to out-macho Biden by asserting that Putin would have never invaded if HE were President. Putin took land from Biden, land from Obama (?), land from everybody, but not from him! He would never answer Bash’s question about what he would actually do in Ukraine at all. Both of them worthless.
Crimea was on Obama’s watch. I didn’t know it belonged to him, though. /s
Thank you. I was scratching my head trying to figure out what DJT meant with the assertion that VVP took land from Obama.
This is an illustration of the need for creative imagination to figure out what the speakers actually intend, or what real world substrate underlies the content of their vocalizations. It was exhausting.
The quality of the rhetoric in these events is never good, but this may be the worst I have ever seen.
I like this spin: “Biden is destroying the country. I have to run.”
I don’t believe it, but it works, I think. Duty. Biden is so bad.
Plausible, if not believable.
Well, I’m back from the dumpster fire. Who won? The clowns on the stage or the monkeys in the media?
’cause I’m quite sure it’s not the American people.
Ancient Rome?
Because now their decline and fall looks slightly more respectable.
It’s still very early in the game for our own.
Our runway may be shorter than Rome’s in, say 300AD.
We haven’t had our Nero yet, but we did have Antony Blinken strumming the Stratocaster while FABs turned lots of Ukrainian old men into ground chuck.
Ah. I was thinking of the Republic, but I guess that’s quaint and momentary naivete on my part. The USA hasn’t been a republic since before I was born.
Dumpster Fire. Another entry for a rock band moniker!
I’m enjoying these comments and the follow up, without the inflicted pain from watching the debate. And in an earlier comment above, the part about Trump being a “whiner” and a poor loser rings pretty true to someone like myself that is non committal or split. I can’t support Biden at all, and Trump just has too many warts and makes bad decisions like , for example, bringing back the tariffs idea from his 1st term in office. Economic advice from people like Stephen Moore or Peter Navarro ( ok in jail but still ) are annoyingly wrong and think the Laffer curve works. It’s not rain or anything else that trickles down, but it’s definitely wet.
From the comments, I’m tempted to visit the Orange site.
Please do, so that the rest of us needn’t. And please, report back. :)
I actually did early on (I didn’t even make it five minutes before having to turn off the CNN feed). Most commenters there are in panic mode. Many ours in what I can only describe as denial.
NTG, I couldn’t help myself. Your comment fired me with the morbid compulsion to peer intently at the train wreck. I actually went to DailyKos for the first time in…?
They’re in hair-on-fire mode right now. Go have a look, it’s hilarious.
Best line of the night:
Trump: “let’s not act like children.”
Ouch! Be interesting to see if that makes it through in the transcript (it was a muttered aside, no?)
Wow. You were right. Let’s see what the end looks like.
It doesn’t look good for the sitting President.
Then again… just wow.
Closing statement:
DJT elliptically criticises JRB for the destruction of Gaza (though his theory, that DJT pressure on Iran would have hindered Hamas, preventing Oct 7 and the ISR retaliatory escalation, is not credible).
Nothing Trump says is credible. Biden either. But Trump seemed strong and Biden seemed weak
DJT occasionally speaks uncomfortable truths. An example tonight was “Ukraine is losing the war.”
Maybe it’s just the “stopped clock right twice a day” effect.
Yes, that’s his often used tactic. He’s full of it most of the time, with occasional truth bombs. Like when his supporters were chanting “Genocide Joe”, and Trump said “They’re not wrong”. I believe he repeated it.
He flirts with the truth, and truth thirsty people are desperate for even that small amount
Analyst: “deep panic in D party started minutes into the debate”
IM Doc mentioned this in real time
———-
Perhaps a 1968 Lyndon Johnson-style announcement likes ahead
> deep panic
Here it is:
Then:
Gov. Gavin Newsom to attend Presidential debate as Biden surrogate KCRA
I had the picture of Biden collapsing, and Newsom leaping onto the stage to catch him, creating a sort of Pieta-like tableau.
NOTE If panic is the immediate line the press takes, then that was the purpose of the early debate; to sort things out. Good luck to the dudes and dudettes in the smoke-filled room!
a CNN commentator’s words immediately following, in the CNN YouTube stream
At this moment, another commentator is talking about making changes while there is still time, well before the Convention.
A commentator suggests “elder abuse” (not his words) as an interpretation of what happened tonight. “if you love him, would you put him out there?”
Yes, the still invaluable Twitter gave me a hit of “deep panic” so I updated the comment.
Thanks!!!!
Discussed on CNN a couple of minutes ago. I must confess experiencing a frisson of schadenfreude.
> a frisson of schadenfreude.
Let’s look on the bright side: At least Biden didn’t bite anybody!
He could have negotiated the debate rules to include Commander as his service dog.
One of the CBS analysts also mentioning panic setting in among the D electeds and that Biden may (I don’t recall the exact word used) need to step down.
> CBS analysts
Was the word “panic” used on CBS as well as CNN? If so, there’s a fax machine working somewhere….
Yes, the word was used more than once by at least one of the analysts, and pretty forcefully too. He toned it down a bit after the break, so maybe the producer/director got to him, but he was still making a similar point. Unfortunately I didn’t catch this name, but I’ve seen him before – dark hair and glasses, on the left end of their counter.
There’s also already an opinion piece on the NYT from Patrick Healy about high anxiety from Democrats 30 minutes into the debate. Unfortunately I don’t have a link as I’ve only seen a screenshot. They’re using the word “disaster”.
Link to article at archive.ph: https://archive.ph/hshni
Yikes! This google trends chart on “open convention” going vertical in real time during the debate: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%207-d&geo=US&q=open%20convention&hl=en
Notice the area with the most queries too: DC
Is QellyAnon an AI bot? This writing is just atrocious:
panic all throughout the Democrat _________ [word missing]
reference his week [should be “weak”], final moments
a final count for the “fact check” for a “lie counter” for Donald Trump
What does that last bit even mean??? It’s convoluted and baffling.
“Our” media, talking nonsense just like the clowns in the “debate”.
Yes, Wow, the CNN commentators are really freaking out – CNN! Of course they emphasize how much Trump lied (which he did of course), but they seem really bummed about Biden’s performance. Weirdly, to me they seem to be almost overreacting, almost like a coordinated effort among the whole panel to convince him – or the Dems – to find someone else. Hmm.
“If you love Joe Biden, how can you put him out there?”
Wow.
Go to Google and put in the search term ‘2024 debate panic’ and a whole bunch of articles turns up-
“Live updates: Dems in full panic mode after Biden’s stumbling performance ” – The Hill
“‘Babbling’ and ‘hoarse’: Biden’s debate performance sends Democrats into a panic ” – NBC News
“‘Really disappointing’: Panic in Democratic ranks after Biden’s nightmare debate” – WaPo
Biden’s closing statement: He leads with taxes?! (He repeats that Trump’s handling of the pandemic caused inflation. Who the hell thinks that? The 19 economists?) Now he’s onto drugs for seniors being good because it reduces the deficit? On to lead pipes.
Trump: Just a complainer. He talks about all this stuff and he never does anything. They don’t respect you. They don’t respect you throughout the world [goes into bullet point]. We’re a failing nation but we’re not going to fail any more. Make America great again.”
Neither closing statement especially good, both getting lost on minor points.
Now I can turn the sound down. Interestingly, they didn’t shake hands before walking off the stage.
Anybody here old enough to remember Al Gore sighing in 2000? Let’s see what the press makes of all this.
Didn’t watch so thanks Lambert. I think of these live blogs as a pair of tongs with which to handle something unsavory that I might have just stepped in.
Kidding. I’m sure it was democracy at its finest. I just hate sales pitches.
Trump’s line that he’s running because Biden is running is a pretty good excuse and justification. The real question is why is Biden running.? I say Jill put him up to it.
I’m old enough to remember Reagan using a line from a Spencer Tracy movie in the 1980 R primary, “I paid for this microphone!” A few months later it was “Well..,there he goes go again”.
Poppy Bush checking his watch in 1992.
Lester Holt and Hillary signaling each other like baseball coaches in 2016 v Trump.
RFK, West, and Stein should organize their own debate.
Get somebody like Jimmy Dore to moderate, and then they together watch clips from this FJB and DJT debate, mock and laugh about it as a group, whilst interjecting their own policies.
That would be a lot more interesting (and fun) than this sh*t show.
mock and laugh about it as a group, whilst interjecting their own policies
do a mystery science theater thing… I’ll watch.
Didn’t watch the debate, the amount of drinking I would have done is unhealthy for one of my advanced years, but mom said it was exhausting, and considering that she loves old joe I figured it must not have gone well.
Thanks for the commentary, major public service.
I just couldn’t.
I’d vote for a Dore / Candy-O ticket.
What an embarassment.
Biden is pathetic.
Well, that sucked big time. What a shock! Now we’ll get a great new Dem candidate, like our VP Harris. Or maybe Calif Governor Newsom. Oh boy. Can’t wait to vote. It was all a set up to get rid of Biden.
I switched to the RFK Jr. live debate mid-stream. Couldn’t take either of the two geezers nor the CNN jokers anymore.
Biden looked alternatively catatonic and like he didn’t want to be there. I wouldn’t be surprised if he announces he is stepping down before July 4th weekend.
Trump sounded lucid and relatively more vigorous. I guess he won by default.
Axelrod just threw Biden under the bus, after 2 others called Biden out as incoherent. This panel is destroying Biden. For him to be trashed like this by the party apparatchiks on the CNN postgame show, it means he’s toast. As you say Lambert, Volatility and Events!
The discussion by the CNN panel is IMO more interesting that the debate.
If these people are channeling real sentiment among the Party powers, it’s going to be a wild rest of the year in the D Party.
131 Days left! It will be interesting.
> Axelrod just threw Biden under the bus
Therefore, the Wizard of Kalorama™ enters the chat….
I’m sure O’Malley-Dixon and the rest of ’em will be out in force in the spin room but Biden’s performance will be hard to spin. Slipping cogs right off the bat.
Let us not forget, however, that the Biden we saw tonight also commands the vote of approximately half the country. So the Replacement Theory, as it were, for Biden needs to work on the margin, but the base is solid.
> the Biden we saw tonight also commands the vote of approximately half the country
Last time I checked 81.2m was around a quarter of the country.
Shout out to the non voters. They’re the only rational political actors in this insane asylum.
Axelrod, Jarrett, Rahm, Pritzker, Sunstein and Podesta along with Slum-Times and Fibune turning on the runway lights for Hilldog in Chicago. Bus in the antifa college kids from Madison to chant
“Hi Ho Hi Ho Joe Must Go!” outside the united center.
She’s tanned, rested, and really, really ready to take up the terrible burden. She’ll even let Kamala stay.
I didn’t watch but in a couple non-political online chats I am part of, the negativity about Biden was on full display and went unchallenged. Usually some self-appointed enforcer will come in and attempt to shut down any criticism of the Dems because orange man bad etc. Didn’t happen tonight.
The best comment I saw from a writer cited here a few months back was, “One third of the debate done. I am high, unprepared, and in my pajamas, but I could probably do better up there right now than Biden is”
And he’s to the left of Biden!
As I stated above – I am at a meeting with local folks on a completely different manner – the host and the involved people turned the debate on after 5 minutes or so. The spouses and others were in another room watching the whole thing. They are all pretty much Dem PMC types.
It is now obviously sinking in that they have actually been lied to by Joe Scarborough and Mika. “My God, what was that?” “He actually does look like a dementia patient”. “My grandma could have done better” etc etc were the rule of the evening.
It appears all agree that a change will need to be made. And I repeat – some of these are big donors.
Person A – It is going to have to be Gavin or Kamala…..
Person B – You forget that California is about as popular as syphilis in a seminary in the rest of the country. And Trump could just show videos of SF all day and they are both dead.
Person C – Then Hillary it is!
I have the same feeling I did when all of the entire vaccinated population started to get Omicron. “BUT BUT THEY ARE SAFE AND 100% EFFECTIVE. THEY TOLD US WE WOULD NEVER GET IT, etc etc etc.”
They have remained willfully blind through this whole administration – it was obvious from 2019 that he had dementia. Obviously so. Now they are all seeing it.
Consequences.
It may however be way too late at this point.
When the Dem party begins to think about the working class again – I will listen. Until then they can all rot. The fact that this schaudenfreude is happening to these PMC types that have destroyed this party is very refreshing to this New Deal Dem. I am enjoying every minute.
> “My grandma could have done better”
“The idea!” <-- The Trump campaign could make an ad out of that. Who says that anymore? It was like a mental tic (to be fair, the poor bastard probably couldn't believe what was happening to him; I think that at least partly accounts for his open-mouthed, stunned look). As somebody said above, this was Biden above baseline, too.
> the poor bastard probably couldn’t believe what was happening to him
I feel it’s a bit of “karma” to find JRB dismayed by DJT’s lies.
I recall a D primary debate (2020 race; my vivid memory of JRB from that one is “DARPA: special operations …. thing”) in which JRB baldly lied to obscure/deny his involvement in the decades-prior passage of a law that deeply disadvantaged debtors. Sanders called him on it, “you know that’s a lie”, but JRB persisted.
There’s a kind of poetic justice to find him, 4 years later, deeply humiliated by an even more glib liar.
I wonder whether there are people in the Party who regret what was done to suppress Sanders in 2016 and 2020. Probably not; better to destroy the Party than allow it to be used to implement policies that would benefit the entire populace.
Regardless of who wins, whether one of these or somebody else, the system will not allow fundamental change. I read Michael Pettis recently, he made the point that both us and China suffer from severe inequality that forces large increases in debt to maintain spending and gdp as the rich save much of their income. Inequality is the point and objective, and won’t change here in the us without revolution.
the irony is—-IMO, one doesn’t not want “your side” (in the broadest of terms, left/right-of-center) to win the 2024 election, which is heresy to political Normies.
There are just too many systemic, structural infections and fractures within “The System” that the best the next White House can hope for is to be able to yet again “kick the can” and limp into 2029.
Worst case scenario, your broad-stroke ideology gets blamed for ills that descend from 2025-2029: war/deaths of US soldiers, inflation, asset crash, supply chain disruptions, climate, you name it…..lots of potential “Swords of Damocles” hanging over the US right now.
“When the Dem party begins to thing about the working class again.”
Kucinich bailed on RFK jr right after …
I watched the whole debate with my octogenarian mom as she wanted me to watch it with her.
She had an interesting perspective as a retired speech therapist. She thought his prep team over prepared him to the point of exhaustion, and she saw signs of what she called cluttering which was akin to stuttering.
The best case argument she could make was that this was a man who understood what he was hearing, was angry about what he was hearing and knew what he wanted to say but had trouble articulating what he wanted to say and at times lost his train of thought.
So even if his mental acuity is not an issue, his stamina is an issue relative to the punitive duties he has.
When he got really really angry I thought it cohered his delivery.
But is the average person going to make a distinction between the cognitive spillover of exhaustion in the face of diminished stamina, versus senility?
And that’s the best case argument.
Do you see clear neurocognitive deficits where my mother does not?
> The best case argument she could make was that this was a man who understood what he was hearing, was angry about what he was hearing and knew what he wanted to say but had trouble articulating what he wanted to say and at times lost his train of thought
I wrote:
I think your Mom and I were getting at the same thing. Biden thought balloon: “He’s getting away with it! I can’t believe it, but that bastard is getting away with it!”
> “He’s getting away with it! I can’t believe it, but that bastard is getting away with it!”
Perhaps JRB has a sense of what it may have felt like to be Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary.
Poetic justice, IMO. Not that I’m happy with the outcome, but I can see the justice in it with respect to JRB.
I personally do not see a big distinction in terms of the cognitive capacity to run the country.
OK, broke down and watched it. Lincoln/Douglas debate this was not. We are so screwed.
Genocide Joe’s eyes in the 2nd half reminded me of Marshall Applewhite, of Heaven’s Gate fame…
In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, his appointed Sheikh Yusuf Al-Bayadin shall deliver us, inshallah.
I await the awakening of the Hidden Imam to lead the Democrat Party back into the ways of the New Deal.
After listening to this ‘debate’ my first reaction was recalling this line from Hollow Men:
“Headpiece filled with straw.”
I doubt it matters greatly whether Trump or Biden wins. The only certainty I can take away … the u.s. Populace loses.
Who? Who says they saw the debate and thinks Biden is ridiculous? Tell me!!
Who wants Biden gone?? They must be communist progressives.
“They believe they have a record to run on!?!?!” Maybe. Lina Kahn. But I ain’t heard her name yet.
That was my take from CNN afterwards. See IM DOC above.
Everyone sees it.
So who will replace Joe on the ticket? I think it will be Newsome because he looks vital and has good hair.
Misplaced nostalgia was the driving force behind Biden in 2020. The others are weenies. Newsome looks like the love child of American Psycho’s Patrick Bateman and Gordon Gecko.
Big JB. They picked Chicago for a reason.
Funny how Biden has the sniffles now. This turns into something else, and bingo bango, we have a reason to step aside.
> I think it will be Newsome
I’m sure Trump is licking his chops at the prospect of Mr. French Laundry. California is not, shall we say, the paradise that it once was.
They need the Northern tier, so who knows? Maybe spook-adjacent Big Gretch? Pritzker?
The choices are… well, not exactly limitless, are they? Obama having blighted the party so badly by engineering Biden’s 2020 win in the first place.
And his do nothing presidency. The star of the party is AOC (I know) who came to prominence after Obama entered lame duck status.
If anyone had street smarts, no sane, non-geriatric, non-power-hungry Democrat would accept the nomination in 2024.
Build a campaign infrastructure, raise $$$$$$, start pounding the pavement 100 days before Election Day? no way!
that leaves HRC as the path of least resistance. she better have been laying off the booze and burning some calories in the Hamptions to look photogenic for the cameras.
That and tapering off of the warfarin.
Lambert,
the arc of this story supports your Kalorama thesis.
Horsefeathers!
You go with the hoarse you rode in on…
Some are already pushing Mayo Pete.
Like in front of a train?
*cleaning computer screen* Thank you!
I can think of a couple responses, but I will pass. Allow your imagination to run wild.
Arnie Karenina for the win!
“Replace” Joe Biden on the ticket? Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
There never was a Plan B with these people, and they have no savior this year. They’re just out of ideas.
Not Newsom. Gov. Goodhair won’t play in the all important Midwest. So I’m guessing Whitmer or Pritzker. Big Gretch is much better looking than Pritz. She’s taller, too, isn’t she? So that’s a plus.
I remember live-streams here @ NC from other debates, and … I am surprised at how little commentary (quantity of posts, and range of commenters) there are this time.
I was only surprised for a moment, tho. Then I realized that I simply couldn’t stomach listening to, or watching these two horrible candidates.
I just can’t stand to see these two people.
Thanks to those of you that did this dirty work, and watched them, and bothered yourself to re-say, yet again, what we all knew so many years ago.
And yes, we are screwed. The fact that our country would ever seriously consider either of them for the presidency tells the world that we’re about to come apart, and they should do their best to run away from us, and protect themselves from us.
> how little commentary
there wasn’t much substance in this debate, IMO. It’s kind of exhausting to sift through the exaggerations, outright lies, and word salad to get at the “kernel” of what might have been an intended valid argument.
It’s less wearisome to simply listen, slackjawed and agape, and occasionally raise one’s voice in protest.
Tom P-
Ditto. Thanks all for putting on the waders.
I completely agree, and also thank everyone who pushed through the on-air garbage and posted here!
I’ve thought many times that we’re not a serious country, now I don’t think we’re a competent country. Some things happen, and seem to be to the benefit of some (usually TPTB), but I wonder how much is actually because of their efforts vs luck/inertia/the other side being more incompetent.
Top link in NYT homepage:
“Biden struggles as Trump blusters”
And at The Guardian:
“Democrats concerned after Biden’s debate performance as Trump gets away with lies and deflections – live”
Yeah noticed that. Must have been bad if they’re leading with that. Can’t hide it I guess.
This is the worst version of King Lear I’ve ever seen
(twitterverse gold)
I didn’t watch the bum-fight between Totenkopf and Dummkopf. From the Comments above, I didn’t miss anything. My wife was watching and I’ve hidden all the sharp objects in the house…
I’d rather watch the wonderful documentary Soul Power about the Zaire74 music festival that was supposed to be part of the Rumble in the Jungle rather than When We Were Kings. Give me James Brown at the peak of his talent or the Fania All-Stars featuring Celia Cruz over Ali and Foreman (both of whom I admired outside the ring; shaking George Foreman’s hand was a memorable experience). Actual entertainment!
Yes! The music from that concert was amazing: Celia and Jorge Santana with Johnny Pacheco and the Fania All Stars, James Brown, Bill Withers (whose version of “Hope She’s Happier With Him” will make your heart pause)…
Oh, and not that it’s relevant to this hopeless debate, but I recently re-watched the Ali-Foreman fight and came to the conclusion that the Rope-a-Dope hypothesis – that Ali took nothing but punishment in order to exhaust Foreman – is overstated: Ali was far more aggressive in the early and middle rounds than people gave him credit for, and then indeed did let loose at the end…
Mythic music; mythic, courageous athlete…
Celia Cruz w/ Fania All Stars in Zaire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXN-_aslaYs
Jorge Santana w/ Fania All Stars in Zaire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygC21awaSwA
Bill Withers in Zaire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exly_kLHi8Y
This is so much more fun than I hoped!
Kristen Welker saying the debate format, mikes being off, backfired. I agree.
Lambert called that one, a few days ago.
I think the “live broadcast” format is a mistake. Give the rapid-fire format and the tendency to exagerrate, obfuscate and outright lie, I think that the debate should be recorded and broadcast after the fact with fact checking.
There could be two viewing options for the fact-checked versions. One option could simply have a truth meter running in parallel with the vocalizations of the respective candidates, but with the sound always on.
The second, and much less work to listen to, version would mute the speaker whenever he was uttering a falsehood or an excessive exaggeration. The silent portions, being contentless, could be excised and the remainder spliced together. The whole debate could probably be heard in under 15 minutes (including the time required for the moderators to speak).
Who gets to be the fact-checker though?
CNN?
NYT Editorials that include calls for Biden to drop out:
Ezra Klein, Feb 16: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html
Jamelle Bouie, Feb 24: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/24/opinion/joe-biden-democratic-primary.html
Ross Douthat, May 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/opinion/biden-trump-election.html
Bret Stephens, June 11: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/11/opinion/biden-gaza-ukraine.html
Prolly another incoming…
Also remember critically the spook whisperer, David Iganatius, in the WaPo last year, IIRC Nov.
Maybe that was a “get out before we have to embarrass you” message from Ignatius’s pals.
“Black jobs” Isn’t there some concern over team blue concerning black voters heading over to see what’s up with team red (or just not bothering to vote)? The destruction here is immense (via the non response).
Edit for clarity
I, for one, found the debate highly informative, but I’m a voyeur who gets his jollies from watching naked emperors sway with the speed addling winds blowing through what’s left of their minds.
Try to imagine either man in a Cuban Missile Crisis-style event. We’re in much more danger than during Cold War 1.
These are dangerous times indeed. The should be teachings kids like they did with me, on getting under the desk at school for the incoming nukes.
“Dem strategists cite ‘Too many clouds to yell at, too few onions on the belt,’ in disappointing debate performance.”
8/8 of the CNN “pundits” on their main panel, plus 3/3 in their “spin room” unanimously declared Biden’s performance to have been a disaster in one form or another. A few of them offered relatively feeble disclaimers that Trump also performed poorly because of all his lying, but that’s such old news now as to have lost much, if not most, of its impact.
Given the source, that’s an astonishing condemnation of the Dems’ situation.
Anyone else see this? If it goes viral he’s twice dead and buried
x.com/greg_price11/status/1806522851329253446
Captioned: Zoomed in video of Jill Biden leading Joe off the debate stage.
Add your own https : // to rebuild the url because too often links don’t post
This is insane
Jee-zuz. And this is the guy that they not only gave the nuclear football too but want him to have it for another four years more. Remember when they said that Trump couldn’t be trusted with it? Good times.
He can’t really have the football though, can he?
I’d always assumed there’s a network of Dem operatives who drive the actual Biden regime bus. Joe doesn’t even know where he left the keys.
Don’t know who they’d be though. Maybe Lambert does?
> Don’t know who they’d be though. Maybe Lambert does?
Edith Wilson?
Junta is the word you want, I think
Yeah I saw it. Those stairs were very shallow, not tough to navigate AT ALL. And he had trouble even with Jill’s help.
Whew. Biden is toast.
The most frequent words I’m seeing on social media to describe Biden’s performance: “sad” and “brutal”.
Also saw a good quality still image of Dr. Jill helping him down the steps from right in front of the stage, so there could be some very clear video as well.
And if that drops on social media…
At least we are all now spared from having to listen to a candidate banging on about universal affordable healthcare, and bashing billionaires. Thanks, Democrats.
mission accomplished!
This “debate” is a freakin disaster not just for the dems, but for the USA.
Our credibility, our ability to be taken seriously elsewhere in the world, this has officially– and highly-visibly– ended.
Musical interlude
Nice–appropriately doomy. We’re all in that bathtub now…
Van Jones came right out and said “look I love the emperor. I do. The man is naked.”
Deep, deep down I believe I was hoping that the claims about Biden were exaggerated. Well . . .
Incidentally, I’m not an American so don’t keep up with such things, but surely if Biden is thrown under the bus the Democrats are more or less guaranteed to lose next November; changing horses in mid-stream and all that, plus making the party look as weak and confused as Biden looked in the debate.
I think if they had any better idea than Biden, they would’ve used it by now. I doubt the debate would change that, despite the current panicking. They have the consolation of November being far enough away for people to forget what happened. Though I wonder if they have any contingency plans in case Biden simply dies before the election.
Thanks for your comment. I was hoping more voices from outside the US would have an opinion posted on this site. The problem for the Dems is that they don’t have anyone with any popularity to succeed Joe.
Well, from outside the US, my opinion is that the world (apart from the elites of the west) is appalled that the USA could give itself the choice of a senile, demented neo-fascist and a mouthy incompetent narcissist real estate vendor, (both in thrall to the zionist genociders), for the leadership contest.
However, while being appalled, I don’t think anyone is surprised. That’s what the end of an empire is supposed to look like.
Yes, and no apparent mechanism to change course. A little depressing for an elderly grandfather worried about the next generations.
I think Europeans see how bad Biden is daily.
Our press and commentariat are less fawning to politicians in the first place and US politicians have no leverage (no US party machine is going to give a regional German news anchor a job as campaign media coordinator or run political ads on Portuguese commercial television). So the picture is fairly unvarnished.
Also, the standard for vitality is higher here: there was a clear-out of the EU gerontocrats in the years after Blair was elected and successive leaders have been young (Cameron, Macron, Sunak, Meloni etc). If anything, callow youth is the problem. There is rumbling in the UK that *Starmer* is too old,he presents like a younger man but he’s pushing retirement agent. He looks in his prime compared to Trump, let along Biden.
Weirdly, having defined national, state-funded broadcasters with bland, sanitised reportage makes the commercial broadcasters seek differentiation through hostile independence. There is a herd mentality on some issues, which is sometimes received wisdom – no UK broadcaster frames public expenditure in the primetime news in MMT terms routinely, only by accident with guests or on specialist programmes – and sometimes policed by MI5/MI6 types. For example, there is no meaningful discussion of the Skripal affair and Novichok and there was never any sceptical treatment of Assange’s plight (Swedish lawfare, US assassination plots and spying on Ecuadorean embassy, solitary confinement in Belmarsh on remand etc.).
Biden’s health is seemingly not considered important by the European Deep State – for them, this Presidential election is clearly a question of changing the dummy in the shop window but the geopolitical goods will remain the same. US domestic king glove treatment is because otherwise domestic rice bowls will be broken.
Just for the record with an almost two week period of dangerous heat in NYC and many libraries/official cooling centers having no AC, depending on fans and closing on the weekends the city council and Eric Adams have reportedly agreed to forgo planned budget cuts for libraries. It will reopen the libraries on Sundays and weekends, no word if they can do much needed maintenance. The library cuts, and I would bet the park cuts as well, have become and I quote “a huge thorn in Adam’s side”. The reason for the cuts is always migrants.
Chicago may, likely is handling the migrant crisis better, but in NY I have no doubts that the migrants are very much a major reason that Biden saw a huge drop in support in the state. Inflation is another biggie, and no most of the people who are getting hit the hardest are not going to buy that Trump was the cause.
Neither of these two walking pieces of manure should be anywhere near the White House. I will probably say the same about Biden’s replacement. Or anyone who could step up for Trump. Our political system, like so much else, has been so twisted and mangled I don’t think I can come up with one major party player who would have been considered serious enough to run for this office fifty years ago. We are screwed and not just at the top. I weep for us.
I believe Laurence Ferlinghetti wrote a very good poem on the theme of your last sentence. Worth looking up.
At this point, Michelle Obama can name any price she wants and the Democratic Party will have to pay it.
Would Michelle be running as a ‘front’ for Obama 3.0?
My kids got wind that trump might be elected. They were too young to realize what was happening in 2016 and 2020. In 2024 they got anxious at the idea of trump being president again.
I assuaged them with the idea that there’s only ever been one good president, and that was an over a century and a half ago.
Don’t worry folks, this office has been disgusting and corrupted for all but four years of the Republics history.
Seeing Team Blue fanatics meltdown as they saw Biden for the first time since 2008, I wonder how Europeans are going to react as their “leaders” have been waddling after Biden.
Thanks for this comment. Good point about European reaction and I liked your “love child of American Psycho’s Patrick Bateman and Gordon Gecko.” I will have to watch Joe blow this morning for the laughs, something I never do.
Do you think that anyone at the press outlets that were playing the right wing is lying and misrepresenting Biden’s declining physical and mental health card so strongly over the past month have realized that they just got outed as idiots and/nor liars? And if this debate was intended to be the salvo to remove Biden by strategists, how unthinkably sycophantic they have gotten.
Many of our deluded Democratic supporters are too shocked to make the connection but it will come in time.
It isn’t just Joe and Mika and Rachel who have been lying.
Thanks Obama!
Hey, I haven’t seen a fundraising email or text, not even one featuring the “liberal darling” Lynne Cheney.
Just had to dunk on Trump at the Correspondents’ Dinner…
>>>Just had to dunk on Trump at the Correspondents’ Dinner…
lol…fascinating how the literal course of history can pivot due to a 5 minute jab written by some obscure speechwriter and delivered by a smug person who couldn’t help themself.
catastrophic self-regard and it is too seldom remembered but let us not forget the viciousness of Trump’s birther campaign. Hard not to take it personally…
Theory A.
Joe either drops out or is 25th Amendmented.
Harris becomes President. Just like Gerald Ford after Nixon resigned.
Harris, like Ford before pardons her predecessor and his ensemble when she leaves office.
She can truthfully claim to have been America’s first woman President, of colour no less.
The Party either runs Harris and accepts that she will lose, or ‘retires’ her and runs some ‘bright young thing’ as a placeholder, also probably to lose.
Either way, Trump ends up holding the tar baby. The next four years are going to be brutal. As the Cthulhu cult says it, the stars are in alignment.
2028 is anybody’s guess.
Ambrit, that is my theory, too. As for 2028, my guess would be an authoritarian (of either stripe) to deal with chaos from:
I am hoping that the 2028 elections will be held and we will not be dealing with
Josef von Bidenburg….
Here’s a prescription for those suffering the aftereffects of tlast noght’s “debate (and hook?)” event: not quite an hour of “the other Dr. Jill” in response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvCB-OHOC5k
Trump’s team quickly editing and releasing a Biden Debate Highlights Package. Absolutely brutal. Without even including Jill helping him off the steps then telling him he did so well and deserves an ice cream.
(Please excuse the source)
https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1806557731244986521
“The Hoarse Whisperer, my friends. He can’t hit it fifty yards.”
Amid the fire hydrant of lies, I found the golf bragging most amusing. It’s really hard to get to a six handicap (shooting in the 70s some of the time). In my case it demanded a serious dereliction of duty to my day job. Not something to talk up during the interview.
Too late to rename this post “Bumble in the Jungle”?
Yes, but clever!
One thought that I had regarding Biden is if the Dems didn’t want to move the debates into summer when fewer people are watching (people in Massachusetts are far more interested in the Karen Read trial for example) and so that if something similar happens in October, the Democrats and their media allies can simply say something along the lines of “this is old news, let’s talk about how horrible Trump is.”
This is all the predictable result of the decision over a year ago to exempt Biden from a primary campaign. If he had simply agreed to the perfunctory conventional primary process it would have been clear before Super Tuesday he’s not capable of winning another election. But they decided to keep the lid on it and here we are.
I hope we get additional coverage this week of the reactions among Nato leadership. I would hope europeans would see highlights of last night and think “Wait, this is the leadership we are following into Ukraine? Really?”
Maybe the Europeans think Annie Appelbaum is calling the shots over Ukraine.
The “allies” probably have more awareness of who is running the US.
I’m re-reading this thread this morning for triage. Thanks to all of NC who actually endured this pathetic show. I don’t see how the Dems could realistically have expected anything more from Biden, clarity-enhancing pharmaceutical cocktails or not.
I agree with commenters above, no sane individual comes to the Dems’ rescue this late in the game. They shot themselves in the head by refusing a primary and circling the wagons around someone who with few exceptions reneged on his campaign promises, and who will be remembered by many for doubling down on genocide. And what better proof of America’s need for a deep purge of its political system, than this “debate”?
Do the Dem donors whose reactions IM Doc described above now understand how moribund the party is? Probably not, as they are a large part of the problem.
It will be interesting to assess reactions from outside the US: will they conclude that we are indeed coming apart? From Tom Pfotzer’s comment above,
Yesterday morning and afternoon in #McResistance media, any mention of Biden’s age was a MAGA deep fake; today (morning of 6/28), Uncle Joe must go!
A textbook example of the media’s At Your Feet Or At Your Throat hair trigger reflexes…
As she so often does, Caitlin Johnstone called this one right:
“Everyone’s focusing on what Biden’s dementia-addled debate performance says of his ability to be re-elected. Not on the fact that the sitting president of the United States has dementia. This suggests that people already know at some level that the president of the US does not run the US but are so mentally compartmentalized as to actually care who wins the presidential election.”
from CJ: “So in order to hold their mainstream worldview together, liberals are simultaneously straddling the two completely contradictory concepts that (A) it doesn’t matter who the president is because the country is actually run by unelected empire managers, and (B) that Biden’s debate performance was very concerning because it means Trump will become president. ”
I don’t think this is incoherent. It would cohere if the liberals are worried that if DJT is elected, he will clear out the empire managers (as part of Project 2025, perhaps) and make the Office of President once again meaningful from a policy perspective, and himself hold that office.
That’s way too sophisticated IMO. Where Caitlin excels is the ability to express powerful but counter-mainstream truths in simple, powerful prose. She did it again here.