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By Lambert Strether of Corrente.
‘Tis dangerous when the baser nature comes
Between the pass and fell incensèd points
Of mighty opposites. William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 5, Scene 2
The Time: “The debate will start at 9 p.m. EDT Tuesday and is expected to last 90 minutes.”
The Place: “The National Constitution Center in Philadelphia will take center stage in the race for the White House Tuesday as it hosts the first and only scheduled presidential debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump.” And how ridiculous that there’s only one debate. No doubt the loser will want a rematch, but the winner will refuse to grant one.[1]
The Rules: “ABC’s rules, first shared with the campaigns last month, largely mirror the format of CNN’s presidential debate in June between Trump and President Joe Biden, during which the candidates’ microphones were muted as their opponent spoke. It was a rule that the Biden campaign had insisted on but something the Harris campaign had sought to change after she became a presidential candidate. The network’s rules also state that there will be no audience, the candidates will not be permitted to have written notes, no staff can visit them during the two commercial breaks and the candidates cannot ask questions of one another.” And: “ABC said only the moderators will be permitted to ask questions. Each candidate will be allotted two minutes to answer each question with a two-minute rebuttal, plus an additional minute for a follow-up, clarification or response.” Funny how the mike rule now favors Trump, even though the Biden camp insisted on it.
Interestingly, both candidates have a similar weakness: Kamala, for word salad (honestly, “Exhausted about the division” isn’t English), and Trump, for what I call “jazzy riffing” (and what some specialists, perhaps tendentiously, call “tangentiality“). Trump’s riffing, however, has staying power; he can keep it up for ninety minutes, easily. About Kamala’s staying power, I’m not so sure.
Before the Biden vs. Trump debate, I wrote:
What I will be watching for — besides, I admit it, waiting for Biden to slip a cog or an “Oh, the humanity!” moment from Trump, plus both debaters duking it out, blow-by-blow, ZOMG the spectacle!! — will be how the candidates appeal, or have been managed or chivvied into appealing, to the small numbers of persuadable voters in the swing states (and from their appeals, perhaps to reverse engineer the future course of the race). For some reason, I’ve been watching Moneyball clips lately; this is an especially good one: “People who run ball clubs, they think in terms of buying players. Your goal shouldn’t be to buy players, your goal should be to buy wins. And in order to buy wins, you need to buy runs.” Those small numbers of persuadable voters are the runs.
Of course, Biden actually did slip a cog, majorly, so the debate seemed rather pointless after that, and I never saw what I said I would watch for. Perhaps this time!
However, if I had to imagine what one might call a decisive moment — Trump having achieved two, one with Clinton, and one with Biden, knocking the latter out of the race — I can see two possibilities.
First, Kamala. If Kamala comes out with a superbly crafted and confidently delivered statement for the prosecution, using the word “felon” a lot, Trump would need to knock it down, hard (the recent revelation that Bragg’s PR dude thinks that Bragg’s case was a crock should help here. Fani’s, too). She’ll need some assistance from the moderators to do this early, however.
Second, Trump. As we know, Trump has a genius for sensing weakness in others. He has yet to display this with Kamala. My pet theory of that case: Trump spokesperson Alvarez recently said that “the American people know ‘who Trump is,’ but ‘what we don’t know is Kamala Harris,” but I would take that further: The case can be made that Kamala doesn’t know who she is. It’s great to be Indian, Black, and a mixed-race person of color. What’s not great is to shift, chameleon-like, from the first, to the second, to the third, depending on the campaign. There’s also Kamala’s shifts on policy from 2019 to today. Surely Medicare for All and fracking are big enough issues that one might take a considered stand upon them that lasted more than three years? And then there’s the plagiarism issue: If Kamala really knows what she stands for, why on earth plagiarize Biden’s platform? And then there’s the oh-so-authentic collard greens and spices thing. What’s up with that? I don’t know how to reduce that to a debate zinger, but if I had to pick Kamala’s weakness, that’s what it would be.
Oh, and volatility is the central feature of this election, despite all efforts to keep things stable. It follows that the debate will be volatile, as the last one was.
P.S. I wonder if Melania releasing a clip on the attempt to assassinate Trump will be a topic in the debate. That should be interesting!
NOTES
[1] More on the National Constitution Center from WikiPedia:
The National Constitution Center is a non-profit institution that is devoted to the study of the Constitution of the United States. Located at the Independence Mall in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the center is an interactive museum which serves as a national town hall, hosting government leaders, journalists, scholars, and celebrities who engage in public discussions, including Constitution-related events and presidential debates.
The groundbreaking ceremony was held on September 17, 2000, the 213th anniversary of the signing of the Constitution.
Frankly, I find the whole notion a little unsettling. If the Constitution were truly a living document, would there be a museum devoted to it? My sense of unease is reinforced by another detail:
Prior to its closure in December 2019, the Newseum, a journalism-themed museum in Washington D.C., had featured a four-story-tall stone panel inscribed with the text of the First Amendment as part of its exterior design. The Freedom Forum, a nonprofit organization that created the museum, announced in March 2021 that the panel would be dismantled and donated to the National Constitution Center for display in its second-floor atrium.
So the First Amendment was the first one to go….
I think he should attack her for being an empty vessel with no policies. She’ll crumble if pushed to explain policy I believe.
He may just hammer the progressive liberal commie thing. Not sure how fruitful that is in terms of swing state votes. Maybe just fruitful enough?
I have to admit to a frisson of excitement at the idea of the Kamala vibes train derailing in a cloud of word salad.
doesn’t look like that’s happening. she is certainly talking policy as well as he is which is to say not well at all. she is vague and he is bombastic; both of them are liars.
I will say her vibe is better than Hillary’s
9:42 he’s getting rattled
the moderators are doing better than most
Waiting in the virtual crowd for this debate to start.
I live cheek-by-jowl with a whole buch of MSNBC liberals–many of whom are family and good friends–and I’m doubtful that audience will be able to hear anything that contradicts their deeply-held “joy” about Kamala.
Eschaton’s Douglas Black observed earlier today that the debates have become so “meta” that the real audience is the pundits and the “journalists” who simply enter quotes into their pre-writes.
The joy of watching a couple of master debaters at the zenith of their game, ah!
Let the BBee handle it: Nation Eagerly Anticipates Two Brightest Minds In Country Meeting In Respectful, Productive Dialogue
ABC debate stream on YouTube
If it accomplishes nothing else, this has already given my wife a half day off with pay. Parkway Central free library (the main library) sent everybody home at noon.
I’m not sure I’m aware of anybody who cares about Chris Christie’s opinion.
Chris Christie
20 seconds of ABC and I’m ill already. I should have gotten that bottle of hootch. This is a different planet to the one I thought I was on.
Kamala is that you?
Nope, Lucy Parsons here.
I gotta do Max Sweat workout tomorrow or I’d already be drunk, honestly. I guess there’s always 2028.
Ten minutes in and I’m turning the sound off. Y’all listen to it so I don’t have to. There is nothing either one could say that would convince me to vote for either one of them. Full stop.
I haven’t done debates in years and years, I’m taking one for the team this time!
Harris and Trump have never met each other before now. I didn’t know that.
For a voter like me–a Bernie volunteer in 2020 and someone who subsequently ran for and won local public office after being thoroughly disabused of my hopes for the Democrat Party–I am watching this debate by bracing for thoroughly deranged talking points from both candidates.
She has a plan to lift up the working class and middle class. Believes in our aspirations.
And the tired old Opportunity Economy. Sounds like Biden.
Wow, a tax cut for families for people with families, only. I can go bite myself. That’s great, thank you. Hooray, small businesses! Congrats on living small businesses. A tax deduction! Which I also don’t get. Thanks again.
Why not let Trump describe what his plan is. Who cares about the deficit? Only the beltway. Defining Trump’s plan for him is a nice strategy though.
This is gonna be a long night; nice Trump rebuttal that Harris was “incorrect” on his plan.
Trump off to a great start though man. Owning it.
Wow. Blaming Trump on the Pandemic when Biden murdered more people. They didn’t clean up nothing. That’s why I hate these debates. It is just lies.
She’s certainly gonna be the president to murder all Americans stochastically, true statement there at least.
She’s quoting what Goldman Sachs said her plan woudl do. LOL wow.
Sounds like a stump speech
“Trump Sales Tax” is nice, but she botched the rhetorical support for her position.
Yes, she needed to call them tariffs and then explain why they would be an effective sales tax..
Each candidate is hemmed in by their oligarch backers, and many such are shared. Imo this will be short of policy and long on personal attacks by both.
Wow. Trump mentioned 1917! His record on COVID is good. Nice.
Again, no one I know who is watching this “debate” is going to even hear what Trump just said.
They are ringing the changes.
This is a disaster for Trump. Visually. Harris is lovely, high-cheekboned, speaking directly into the camera. Trump looks like a wrinkled frat boy who just took off his goggles.
He is effective when speaking, but the constant scowl he makes while she speaks may hurt him.
On second thought, it seems like his look away approach while listening is designed to avoid giving any chance of a photo of him looking at Kamala while she is looking at him and scolding.
not a good strategy: as a mother I can verify that he looks like a sullen adolescent who came in after curfew and doesn’t want to hear about it
I’m not watching, just listening. And Trump is nailing Harris on their economic policy. Whatever she says, the economy sucks today. Trump has a winner on that.
He pointed out that she copied and pasted her economy policy as well; someone in his campaign is paying attention.
The lies are hilariously brazen though. Trump calling her a Marxist. Harris wouldn’t know what Marxism even is. Nor would Trump.
That nasal voice of hers drives people away.
She comes across as smug and self righteous. Not a winning look.
I agree. Her sarcastic smirk really doesn’t work for her.
not as bad as Hillary though!
That smirk is going to get old quickly…
I’m going to bed.
6 minutes in and I’m tired of listening to both of them.
Comment on “opportunity economy” — this reminds of an MMT meme about training dogs to better compete among themselves for a pool of bones that is smaller than the number of dongs.
Aside comment: if what I have heard of DJT’s tariff concept, using punitive tariffs in place of sanctions, is true, it sounds like it might be an improvement on current approaches to economic warfare.
DJT: China will pay the tariffs. Umm, I think not — the importer pays the tariffs, I think.
Depends on the elasticity of the good which largely depends on demand and alternative sources of competition and substitution
Harris is tripling down on Americans not having a clue. Quoting Goldman Sachs in a debate? And this is the Communist?
Would love to see both of their entire stock portfolios.
Calling her a communist gives us commies a bad name.
Just so long as they don’t call her a socialist I’m OK with it. #gramsci
This is really hard to watch.
The is vacuous on both side. Ringing the Marxist bell.
DJT: KDH a Marxist (her father is a Marxist)
riffing on immigration.
(Ah, but how otherwise would we replace the workers disabled by Long COVID?)
she seemed nervous at start, some stumbling over her words
but now he is looking increasingly angry as she manages not to lose her cool
I think they’re both idiots btw
Trump’s immigration position is widely popular and also mostly perceived as reasonable with American workers who understand that their jobs and/or their wages are at risk when corporations know that they are able to replace white-collar and blue-collar workers being paid American wages with desperate immigrants who can mostly cover the work.
“When Congress passes a bill to codify Roe v Wade”
There’s a leap of faith.
She is laughing at him.Is she getting under his skin? She has a plan! And the plan is?
The abortion response by Trump is great in terms of returning it to the states, though. The made up stuff about Democrat gaiety killing babies at 9 months is the usual insanity.
Meanwhile, does Harris actually care about abortion, despite her passionate speech? Biden was out to lunch when Roe v. Wade disappeared. For a month, before they reacted. And they had a heads up. And she’s claiming there will be an abortion ban, and a national monitor of women’s pregnancies.
It’s amazing how much of this is just people making stuff up.
Bringing it back to the states does come off as a reasonable compromise.
And Trump gets to claim he supports pro life and with it at the states, he won’t ever have to face signing any national abortion legislation anyway. Thus his personal position can be discounted.
It seems most of this debate is just going to be a debate about abortion. Fun.
And IVF is a topic. I recall IM Doc mentioning that it is both very expensive and not terribly effective. What a niche topic to even discuss in the midst of an ongoing Pandemic, inflation, genocide.
Abortion debate being returned to states is legally and “politically” apropriate, but a PR loser, though. Somehow, Roe v. Wade came to be enshrined as something that affirmatively gave women the right to abortion, not a legal expedient where the judges had trouble finding where that “right” came from (there was a majority that agreed that it should be a right, conditionally–but they couldn’t agree on what the legal source of that right was) and pretty much every legal scholar agreed that it was a lousy law as far as the Constitution goes. Most legal scholars accept that it would be best if abortion was made into a right via legislative means–preferably at Congressional level. Of course, congressional politicians didn’t want to touch that, b/c the American public has always been schizophrenic on this (the popular opinion is still that this is not a good thing, but that it’s wrong for the government to ban or unduly restrict it–kinda like the views on free speech, actually: people don’t like certain speech, but they are wary of gov’t restricting it, and this has a lot clearer Constitiutional basis, unlike abortion.)
Her boss, if you can call him a boss, he’s always on the beach!
Didn’t take long. Already won buzzword bingo less than 10 min
I feel that I need an encyclopedic knowledge of US politics/policy/legislative/executive history to make sense of DJT’s remarks, to identify the referents. I find it difficult to figure out what he is talking about.
Some bits of truth shine through, such as the impossibility of Congressional action to codify Roe v Wade.
——-
KDH aggrieved tone may be effective. DJT sounds cross; KDH coming across to my ears as “righteously indignant”
Both mics on now?
Harris showing some trial lawyer chops w/r/t abortion. I think she won on this.
Just noticed that Kamala Harris’s mic was not muted when Trump was speaking…
So far the highlight for me was “Run, spot, run!”. I doubt they’re going to set any records for gravitas if I keep watching.
It ain’t no Licoln-Douglas debate…
Linkin Douglass. There, fixed it for you.
OMG the Harris smile and laugh is doing a lot of good work here. Trump has revealed himself and being insane. Let’s hope Harris doesn’t take the bait.
Kamala Harris is also one of only two people on stage who sit down to pee. Bragging up Goldman Sachs and now her prosecutorial record? This is topic changing at the pro level. PBS tried to give her the advantage on the switcheroo and Trump is being Trump.
Really wish I had some acid, this would have been a weird trip.
“They’re eating the pets!”
omg
Family blog both these twats. I’m done.
Yea, we went ’till a bit after the 1st commercial, couldn’t take much more. I will note that the “moderators” have not “fact checked” Harris yet. They’ve done it a few time to Trump. Of course they both are lying often.
This is the best we got??? Off to Dodger baseball.
He loves his rallies. That’s hilarious. She tried to dump on people leaving his rallies early. I love how he keeps pivoting to immigration. Claiming the immigrants are eating the pets of people that live there, lol. When does cannibalism come next? This is nuts. And he is emphatic that immigrants are eating people’s pets. Harris can only laugh. True story.
Harris gets an endorsement from 200 Republicans. WOW she mentions Dick Cheney! What a dunk that must have been? Harris is all in on War Criminals.
LOL he doesn’t answer how he’s gonna depart 13 million or whatever people. Not a surprise. You can’t do that anyway.
“I think is so rich, coming from someone that is being prosecuted” says Harris. Smart to bring that up.
This debate is such a joke, honestly. Trump’s lies are epic. But Harris is of course lying as well.
Why hasn’t Biden addressed any of this stuff?
You have to admit, Harris’ lyes are ultrasonic as well.
DJT boasting about “size” (of rallies).
Immigrants eating host cities’ household pets. I have no idea what is the story behind this, but it sounds like a thing that isn’t worthy of mention in a Presendential campaign
DJT managed to completely dodge the question about his intervention to stop an immigration bill in the Senate.
I find it difficult to tell which stories are true these days, but if the pet eating is true-ish, it may have originated here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/01/nyregion/manlius-ny-swan-eaten.html
I think the ducks and household pets thing is extremely meme-able and will hang around. It is tangential to any presidential level issue, but it is at least as worthy of mention as the couch joke.
Trump talks about migrants eating pets from first hand reports of owners.
Moderator says city manager has no reports of this (the bureaucracy is always right!)
Kamala: (Giggle) talk about extreme!
Hmm, technocrats stepping up to edge of the deplorables volcano.
DJT now boasting about “size” (of number of votes).
pivot to immigration as the question topic
“millions of criminals”, terrorists, common street criminals, drug dealers. Crime is way down everywhere else because the criminals have come to US.
Again, my lack of encyclopedic knowledge is hindering my comprehension, I don’t know whether it’s true, lies, or just bullsh!t.
Christ, Harris sounds absolutely Victorian in her disdain for Trump’s criminal record. I don’t sound that white on Syttende Mai!
K now stepping out onto the ice of DJT being prosecuted for national security crimes
Whereas she has covered up Biden being to incompetent to stand trial on similar charges!
Trump: I am winning most of those cases and I will win the rest on appeal. It’s weaponisation. Comes out swinging!
K: let’s talk about extremes.
Looks like Extreme is on the Bernays bingo card. Continuity “centrists” for the win.
Not sure a single vote will be changed by any of this.
Best…H
Now the Prosecutor exploits the lawfare. “34 felony counts”
“Address bringing down the price of groceries” Sort like “fighting for lower prices.”
It’s the journey, not the destination, that matters.
KDH asked to comment on the lawfare. Avoids the question and criticizes a SCUS decision on presidential immunity.
I’m with Walter on this one…
I was thinking of another scene involving a baseball bat and a car except we the people are the ones getting f*cked
Oh boy. She’s proud of supporting fracking. That seals it, I’m voting for Stein.
Wow, Harris just drove it home hard that she’s the anti-environmentalist, frack baby frack candidate. Standing up for the vulnerable, except when it’s COVID, and then stochastic eugenics is the way forward. So glad she’s gonna be a president that lifts people up.
I’m glad we’re clear on that, that Harris doesn’t care about Climate change.
Trump: “wait a minute, I’m talking now, does that sound familiar?” — ouch.
Meanwhile Trump claims she’s gonna kill all fracking. Which is hilarious, because that’s not even gonna be a thing. Both parties support Big Oil.
KDH: asked to comment on policy flip/flops.
KDH favoring fracking. Tapwater drinkers everywhere rejoice.
Middle class upbringing. Raised by hardworking mother; doesn’t mention the university professor father (perhaps to avoid another “Marxist!” outburst from DJT).
Strength is in lifting people up (unless they’re on the Progressive Left; those have to be beaten down, still).
If “value” was one of the drinking words I’m going to have to throw away the cap on this bottle.
DJT charging KDH with being the environmental candidate.
We did it like nobody in history has ever done it before. People, the best people, come to me and ask how we did it, they’re like totally amazed, they say they can’t believe how great we did, and Biden was a complete failure and everybody is sick of him because he got kicked out in a coup, which was illegal in case you didn’t know…..
They’re coming here, eating foetuses, she loves migrants, so many dead babies and all because she hates America…. you’ll even have to make your dog transgender, if she gets in, oh it’ll be bad…so very bad. Imagine, migrants in your city, transgendering foetuses and eating them? That’s what she wants. And the police, oh the police, she wants to take their guns, replace them with solar panels, the poor police, because Marxists hate the constitution, and under me it was a great constitution, but they ruined it all…
Thank you both! This is hilarious!
Peaceful transfer of power question!
Lol, President Trump, when did you stop beating your wife / electoral college?
And now Kamala was there, as victim, in the desecrated Capitol. 140 law officers were injured. And now Charlottesville. A mob with tiki torches – I think she misjudged how unominous a tiki torch is, unless she’s afraid of cannibals. :-)
“Attacking the foundations of our democracy because you don’t like the outcome.” Oh the irony, Kamala.
DJT asked about any regrets on Jan 6.
pivots back to immigration — so many violent people coming in; so much worse than Jan 6. Crime rates down everywhere else ’cause US is importing the criminals.
KDH cites bill of particulars of DJT sympathy with some nasty actors,
Ha, Trump is painting a picture of taking K to Washington DC and waking Biden from his afternoon nap to sign a bill to close the border.
Why do I think of the movie “Idiocracy” while watching this bizarre event?
Yeah. Weren’t these better in the past? This is more like theater. Trump really does just make up random stuff. Harris is far more coherent, even though there’s no reason to trust her any further than you could throw her.
This really is a disgrace. This country is in terminal decline.
Wow. The rape. Harris believes the rape line. This is Harris full throated support of genocide? Nope, she’s splitting the difference. Talking about a cease fire deal, but the end of this is the US stopped weapons shipments, so it is a lie. And the two state solution is dead at this point. There is no credible two state solution, the Israeli’s don’t want it. And she will always give Israel the ability to defend itself, so that means weapons for genocide forever. Fun times.
Meanwhile Trump claims Harris “hates” Israel. And that she is going to end Israeli as as country.
This debate is farce.
What a screwed up country that both candidates have to demonstrate complete fealty to Israel, a state that would not even exist without US support.
And trying to out-national-security each other.
because we are living the Idiocracy dystopia. Turns out having media oligopolies and a networked supercomputer in nearly first-worlder’s pocket was a bad idea.
There was a scene in a “Buck Rogers” (1970’s NBC show) episode when Buck cleans house at Blackjack because in the future people can’t do simple math in their head…
we have something like that now with social media, wikipedia, and “timelines”/”feeds” on phones….people are fed (and seek out) content that matches their worldview (reflexivity). And people seek identity with “their tribe” to compensate for the anonymity/atomization of real-life.
I wish some of my favorite dead pundits were alive to witness/comment on the current state of the world (Art Critic Robert Hughes, Tim Russert, mathematician Jacob Bronowski, art historian Kenneth Clark, physicist Richard Feynman, Carl Sagan)
Yes. And because the jesters have always told the truth without fear, would love to hear from Molly Ivins, Mike Royko, and George Carlin on the current rat’s-nest of fools at the helm of humanity’s ship.
I am actually starting to change my opinion of her. I kind of think my face turned into a rictus grin as I have listened to Trump’s horseshit tonight and that may be why she also has those grimaces towards him. My brother just text me “He is fucking nuts”.
ABC moderation is horrible. Not even trying to be even handed.
Definitely going to give Trump fans and conspiracy types a lot to work with…
Truth fans and fact fans will have a lot to work with. The ill-defined “conspiracy type” trope is inarticulate and cliché.
Trump turns the “I’m talking now” line on Harris (from 20s in)
ABC now participating in the debate with follow ups to their follow up factchecking.
Harris mocking Trump for not listening to the courts is “deeply troubling and the American people deserve better.”
The moderator, Muir, is now debating Trump.
You could argue that this 3v1 now, which will probably be a Repub talking point after this.
Trump is a mess, going off the topic (which I don’t care that much about I guess) and tossing out a lot of complaints but often coming back to immigration. And I just don’t think people rank immigration all that highly.
Also, get ready for a lot of ads that play a clip of “THERE EATING OUR CATS AT DOGS”.
I think we can put a fork in DJT*.
*Events!
DJT using “bill” in place of “executive order” re: closure of the border by presidential order.
2020 election: DJT maintains he won. intersection of fraudulent voting with illegal immigration.
KDH: questions temperamental fitness of DJT to serve; connection to reality
DJT boasting that he intimidated China, N Korea, Russia.
DJT noting the antidemocratic character of KDH’s nomination.
Israel/Hama next (head in hands)
K: I have talked to world leaders, they say you are a disgrace.
Playing the man, not the ball. Very playground. Kamala has nothing in the policy tank but Orange Man Bad!
I hope, if they are going low, Trump goes lower and says something about K climbing to the top in California on her back and knees.
K: Israel has a right to defend itself….
did you not notice the comment above yours?
“DJT boasting that he intimidated China, N Korea, Russia.”
he opened the door, she just went through it.
My expectations for Harris were really low. I’ve never seen a substantial clip of her speaking. All I’ve heard is she does “word salads”. The fact that she can make points in complete sentences (no mater how empty the points), has to be a win for Harris
I think that’s true. The bar was set pretty low for her. Most of the country doesn’t have the critical thinking skills to separate empty rhetoric from substance.
That was also my interpretation of her performance. Thin gruel and I have no idea whether or not it moves the needle very much.
That moderator is something else. It’s obvious that Trump is in enemy territory here.
Israel/Hamas
How would KDH pressure Israel toward a resolution
“We will continue to work around the clock.” “2-state solution”, “will always arm Israel”
dodges the question of how to pressure toward a resolution
DJT: asked same question. Answer — “If I had been president, the problem would not have arisen”. Pivots to attacking KDH for anti-Israel sentiment.
Both of them dodge the question of actual policies to pressure the Netanyahu government
no kidding. I’ve seen enough. I was just curious if he would be able to intimidate/rattle her as he did Hillary and Jeb!, little Marco, etc.
the answer is no
Of course, because there is no possible resolution to this problem other than war, clearly. I see no reason to think otherwise. The “two-state solution” died with the Oslo process and the rest of the policy is to make Palestinians suffer, get tortured, killed, starved, and terrorized. There can only be, therefore a one-state solution and that cannot, considering the fanatical people who largely populate Israel, include any Palestinians so war is inevitable at some point–won’t happen now for strategic reasons if it happens it will happen after the election–probably after someone is crowned President.
Awful stuff. Kamala is a better liar than Trump, hands down she’s been coached up by talented professionals and it works. Trump is just ranting. The POS that is moderating (the guy) clearly has picked a side.
Still both candidates are bad. I’m embarrassed as an American on the one hand and, on the other, it discredits the central government which is the best hope for mankind, i.e., a weakened imperial center that looks ridiculous may be progress (I hope).
“Flattery and favors.” Hey it worked for Willie Brown.
A real shame none of the networks invited Biden to provide live commentary of the debate as it was happening. Would have rounded out the comedic value of it all.
Trump repeating himself is tiresome but Harris using repetition as bullet points is the definition of “canned.”
g’night
Trading insults about competence re: national security
DJT churlishly declines to give JRB credit for the destruction of Nord Stream II. Inexplicably, KDH doesn’t claim this policy success either.
On the Nord Stream issue, not surprising.
Can’t admit the US were involved.
They confirmed for me why I cannot vote for either with their :answers” on the Gaza question.
The commercial break/intermission is refreshing; sadly it is relatively short.
Harris right now is coming across as just straight-up lying about everything she’s saying about Israel’s depraved and ghastly genocide in Gaza. I’m analyzing her performance, not her actual words. She clearly doesn’t really care about what she’s saying. This is where I feared this “debate” would go. There was never going to be a voice of peace in this debate, but Trump goaded Harris–who went willingly down the garden path–into doubling down on the “right of Israel to defend itself.”
During the commercial break, ABC ran a Harris political ad.
Both can’t love Israhell enough. Trump bleating she hates Israel.
That and fracking support. The poisoned ground water presidencies.
Fake numbers and more. Billions and billions, nobody knows like I do. He is coming off the rails and how can you negotiate a treaty with a power if you are president elect?
Trump sounds quite angry and at times incoherent. I wish that RFK Jr. were the nominee.
I think he’s frustrated that she is not intimidated or rattled by him.
she speaks in platitudes, he makes delusional boasts and threats.
neither represents me.
but I do think the moderators are acquitting themselves pretty well
moderators are acquitting themselves pretty well…..
Huh??? It’s 4 against one. Have they “fact checked” Harris yet? Nope.
“We have a president who doesn’t know he’s alive.” LOL!
Trump preaching a kind of peace, and Harris making a fool of herself talking about Ukraine.
I would have liked to be a fly on the wall listening to Zelenski’s reaction to her.
Did the commercials on ABC News at intermission make anyone feel stupid? This is the garbage that’s on TV these days? Deity help us all.
Wow, if Putin wins, he might move into further countries. Oh noes! He’s right about the uselessness of the war in Ukraine. Ha. So Trump wants NATO countries to pay up. That’ll fix Ukraine. That’s funny, everyone respects Trump. So respected. So Trump is gonna settle it. He’s gonna get ’em together, and stop the war, lol.
Honestly, I wish I had gotten drunk as balls watching this. This is horrific to watch.
Trump is right about where is Biden, what happened to him? Thrown out like a dog.
Maybe he really does believe that these are wasted lives. Who knows.
Harris accuses Trump of wanting to give up the war. Do any Americans actually care about who wins in Ukraine other than liberal Democrats?
So Harris will lie about US machinations in Ukraine for the past decade.
Putin would seat in Kiev now with Trump. So what. She Harris is insinuating that Putin wants to move west. With his eyes on the rest of Europe.
These people are nuts, too.
The difference is, Harris sounds competent. But this policy is insane. These people are nuts.
Harris wants to uphold international norms, except when the US unilaterally invades other countries. LOL. These people are both garbage.
Republicans – the anti war choice
Trump is anti-war. He’s cognizant of the nuclear threat and also appears to care about human lives. Why is he making me think about voting for him.
Why is he making me think about voting for him.?
Because he’s the lesser of two evils, unfortunately.
Kamala: “You adore strong men instead of caring about democracy.”
I think the word that will be used is “passionate.”
After hearing Kamala talk about foreign policy, I’m afraid that if she’s elected Russia will quickly make a decapitation strike!
Look, everything both of them say is nonsense engineered to capture identified demographics as is par for the course. Both will just do whatever presents itself as most advantageous to them and their coalition as the POTUS. It is what it is, to take anything these people say seriously is a mistake. I’ll probably vote for Trump because the enemy of my enemy is my friend (I think). My enemy is the (anti-) Democratic Party and the System. Trump at least symbolically opposes that System.
Did the discussion end? Re Ukraine DJT has acted like the peacemaker and KH the compleat neocon.
Now Kamala is blaming Trump for inviting the Talian to “storied” Camp David.
The great advantage Democrats have is that they have Hollywood and bi-coastal PR firms to train Kamala and though I find her obnoxious she’s more coherent–Trump, who is uncoachable has clearly been outclassed. I disagree with both of them about almost everything. My beef is that Kamal will be the puppet of a committee of oligarchs even more than Biden is/was.
Trump is right that we’re at risk of World War 3 because of the Ukraine war, but I don’t think he would lower that risk.
True, but I think Harris would raise it.
Sometimes she’s completely airheaded and then other times she’s the oracle of the inner circle!! Madness!
Back to live from the national constipation center.
pivot to Ukraine/Russia conflict
Muir to DJT: do you want Russia to win?
DJT: wants the war to stop. Pivots to criticizing European NATO countries for contributing too little. IMO DJT mistaken that Biden had no idea how to avert the war; it seems more likely that the West wanted the war.
bully for DJT to not take bait on US interest in Ukrainian victory
KDH: Speaks, in effect, against a soon cessation of conflict on terms acceptable to Russia. Boating about Western support for Ukraine (strikes me as reality-challenged.)
DJT: reminds that Russia is a nuclear-armed power. Blames KDH for the start of the war.
KDH: a lot of buzz words about american leadership, upholding “rules and norms” (but we rarely here about “laws” too).
DJT: goes back to NATO country payments
pivot to Afghanistan
KDH: agreed with decision to withdraw. Blames DJT for actions prior to JRB, negotiating with Taliban. (Well, at least she’s consistent — we don’t negotiate with people who aren’t our allies)
DJT: claims botched withdrawal from Afghanistan incentivized VVP to invade Ukraine. I call bullsh!t on that one.
Trump butchers the race question. All he had to say is “I looked at her campaign ads.”
Kamala well-briefed: Central Park West, Trump real estate.
Trump pivots to the economy. “She is Biden.”
“Clearly I am not Biden.” “New generation.”
Kamala sounds whiny….
I barely heard that, I’ve finally devolved into shouting into the air while finishing the dishes. This is such a garbage election. Harris sounds reasonable if you don’t understand US political history for the past 50 odd years. And now they’re just all talking over the moderators. And Trump keeps making up stuff that Harris is going to do when she’s demonstrably not an environmentalist or a socialist.
Trump really says just random stuff. The other choice is a dutiful servant of The Hamptons crowd, Goldman Sachs, and Dick Cheney.
“I have concepts of a plan, I’m not president right now”
LOL. Wow.
Fwiw, I was in the charity clinic seeing patients when this began…,lots of Latino patients with the Tv on in the waiting room. Intense applause etc for Trump. Nada for Kamala
I got back to the doctors lounge for the Ukraine back and forth. Let me put it this way. That did not go over well for Kamala among the present PMC.
I am thinking from what I am seeing that this is not likely to make a difference.
Trump: “ObamaCare is lousy health care.” He’s not wrong….
Harris: “Tim Walz and I are both gun-owners. We’re not going to take anyone’s guns away.”
Kamala: “He doesn’t have a [healthcare] plan.” She’s not wrong.
Personally, I’m voting for Jill Stein and Medicare for All.
“The late, great John McCain”.
This woman loves war mongers. Wow. The Democrat Party really is just the modern Republican Party, but socially liberal.
Medicare can only negotiate 5 drugs. What a joke. And insulin isn’t capped for everyone. Just lying about Biden’s record now.
And if you have sh1t ObamaCare, healthcare is still just a privilege, not a right. What a comical joke.
LOL. And Trump is claiming she supports government health care. Like this is retarded. Has Trump ever even met a socialist?
LOL And Harris is claiming Climate is real, but she’s all in on fracking. How can you even comprehend that kind of cognitive dissonance.
Please, help it make sense. I would have drunk myself under the table tonight. I honestly wish I had at this point, but I’d be in the ER now. Wow.
The Spartans didn’t care if who you slept with (ancient Greeks were “liberal” that way, but they also made a regular practice of massacring the Deplorables, eh, Helots, as well as wanting to start wars with just about anyone just because…. Just sayin’.
This woman loves war mongers. Wow.
True dat. Earlier, she was proud of the endorsement of Dick Cheney. Incredible.
Can’t vote for lying genocidests, voting green for Jill the only good choice
I usually vote Green. So I get it. But my problem is that the DP is so wedded to a totalitarian future that I may vote for Trump and, as I’ve been saying, I prefer the direction of neo-feudalism to totalitarianism.
Trump has given me a couple belly laughs, he must be growing on me because I start to find him entertaining. Harris annoys with the nasal whiny voice and smirking. She lacks gravitas.
A clash of intellectual titans this is most definitely not. If only…
The late great John McCain?
Are you family blog kidding me? No wonder she embraced Cheney
I’m surprised Trump hasn’t dunked on her about Cheney. He’s a swamp thing for sure
Maybe Trump’s afraid he’d get shot in the face /snark
He’s already gotten shot in the face, interestingly enough….
Not impressed with either one really, trumps it would have never happened didn’t address manifold specific failings, kamala doesn’t really say anything just emotive posturing and both won’t stand up to aipac. The biased moderator is irritating, answering the question then asking for thoughts and kamala just bullshits as I noted above. I do think trump wavered in the right direction with ukraine, just end it, but won’t address nato expansion as the true cause. Her voice is silky disingenuousness. I think nuclear war is more likely in a kamala presidency.
We’re screwed I won’t vote for either one.
I think she’s worse as the standard bearer for the status quo. And her milquetoast persona will just make excuses for evil in that whiny voice.
Harris must want the gun vote. This is too wild. What a $hit show.
The late great John McCain! From the candidate who was “honored” for war criminal Dick Cheneys endorsement.
Malicious lying and vile people arguing about who is more loathsome is a trigger for me, so I just tuned out of the Trump/Harris “debate.” I’ll look forward to the NC analysis tomorrow.
I have had enough. Going back to the ER. My take home lesson tonight…….I really miss the League of Women Voters and I miss people like Jim Lehrer. What a disgrace the moderators were. I really get the vibe that Muir and Kamala rehearsed together. We really need to do something about this system. It is a national tragedy.
That the politicians were allowed to jettison the League of Women Voters has been a huge win for them and a huge loss for the public.
Looks like three against one. / ;)
KDH talking about policies:
I would like a conversation about “Medicare for All”
a lot of talking over each other now.
Huh! pivot to healthcare:
what is DJT plan for healthcare in US. They’re (Rs are) still working on it.
the weaving is sometimes a bit bewildering.
“We’re looking at different plans”. They’ve had 8 years to think about this, but they’re still thinking.
Conclusion: they will never have a plan.
KDH: ACA doesn’t need improvement (not her words — but the implication of the evasion of the question of her plans for improving US healthcare)
I think the boast about drug prices negotiation is overblown.
KDH: “Access to healthcare should be a right”
pivot to climate change:
“what would you do to fight climate change”
KDH first: kind of evading the answer, boasting about prior policies (which are inconsistent — increasing natural gas production while spending lots on green economy)
DJT: returns to tariff policy (focusing on autos). DJT never speaks to the question of climate change at all.
DJT cut for 2nd intermission.
There should have been more frequent breaks for all the participants in drinking games.
“The Joker” advert.
Seems appropriate to the context.
did anyone else just breath a mental sigh of relief when he just said closing statements are next, and this pain is finally over. I wouldn’t wish this debate on anyone, a completely substance free, fact free debate of servants of the elite.
Maybe this is just me, but Kamala’s voice rings completely false to me.
Trump does too, but I know how to discount for it.
most lethal (diabetic) fighting force climbing mountains on electric bikes
zero substance just like processed food. Might as well be cardboard.
We might not go back, but going forward we’re family blogged
Trump: “Why hasn’t she done it? She should leave right now and do these things….”
“It’s the economy, stupid” redux. And Trump has the advantage because the economy was better under him, and most people were doing ok (or better like me) during covid because of “Bernie Bucks,” PPP loans, child tax credits, and direct cash payments. And all that emergency cash dried up basically right after Biden was sworn in.
“Opportunity economy” is focused group hollowness that you expect from someone deliberately conning you. It’s “hope & change” for suburban republicans, who will ultimately vote for the guy promising the tax cuts that actually benefit them.
Kamala is also ensuring that she loses the Muslim vote in swing states by being so pro-Israel, again & again, a vote that could easily cost her the election.
If this were a functional country, with a real debate, the first question might be why Pandemic aid that halved childhood poverty was allowed to expire under a Democrat trifecta.
I mean, anyone here could probably come up with 10 really good questions about policy that actually matters.
A debate about what really matters this was not.
To save America more pain, we should just cease having any future presidential debates. It’s just a complete waste of time. It is a pointless exercise, might like voting for a Democrat or a Republican and expecting change to materialize.
> “hope & change” for suburban republicans,
Ouch
ABC has the kneepads on now…
Closing statements:
KDH: I’m the “change” candidate. “opportunity economy” again (but I think they need to have more bones, too, in addition to the opportunity to compete for the umber that there currently are)
KDH’s claim to “care about you” rings a bit hollow to me, but what do I know
DJT: Ouch! “Why hasn’t she already done those things?”
Dumping all over JRB administration; finishes with a shoutout, again, to immigration.
——————–
Mostly likely, absent something very unexpected, one of these will be the next president. We’re f@cked.
Now into the commentary….
They replay the handshake, and she initiated it. She sought him out..
Clearly no knockout blow. “What you had was that optic.” Trump was angry….
“Harris looked like she belonged on the stage.”
They interview Walz. “You saw a President for all America in Kamala Harris. An economy that moves all of use forward…. An old man yelling at the clouds.”
Debate to be won or lost in the spin rooms afterwards I suppose.
The more ABC goes on, the more it is clear the Harris campaign didn’t get what they wanted.
As IM Doc already said, not likely to change much. Might be bad news for Harris.
And now let’s talk to Tim. No, no bias here…okay, well they are talking to Vance now. Wonder if they flipped a coin.
Walter Kirn suggested, correctly I think, ABC and Harris basically teamed up. Harris could answer whatever she wanted. Trump was the bad guy who had constantly answer to questions about mistakes from the past. Harris nothing of that sort.
But despite this: I did not have the impression it led the Harris campaign anywhere.
I doubt it will change anything about those polls.
For that these shows are too ridiculous and timid.
Because they COULD say the truth about those candidates. But then they would have lost their jobs with ABC within 10 minutes.
I’m glad I avoided it. Thanks to all of you that took the hit. From the description here my prediction is that only a few people who were undecided before that watched this have now made a choice. Harris may not have been a disaster and Trump may have struggled after not rattling her, but nothing mentioned was new ground. Neither has given the undecideds a real reason to choose.
Whether they stay home, find a third party to vote for or flip a coin in the voting booth, the small percentage of people who will be deciding this election in the handful of states that will determine the electoral college vote are not being given anything to vote for, and neither boogeyman attached to each of the major parties’ candidates is enough to seal the deal.
You were fortunate. I regret my choice. I feel worse about our nation’s prospects today than even yesterday.
I actually no idea why I would vote for Harris, other than there’s money if you’re having a family, which doesn’t help me, and money if you’re starting a small business, which also is not for me. So, not really sure economically why I would bother. Meanwhile the risk of WWIII remains high.
Trump can at least point to a booming economy prior to the Pandemic, and that happened to be true, even if his policies had nothing to do with it. In Trump, I guess there’s some kind of immigrant deportation policy and tariffs, but the former isn’t credible and won’t happen. Maybe tax cuts will.
I’m left with little reason to care about voting. And no end to the Pandemic. And no movement on Climate. This country is in deep peril.
Listening to the Taibbi/Kirn livestreaming, and they are piping in CNN. I thought this was a zinger (I have to paraphrase b/c I can’t remember the exact quote): “Harris showed that Trump is running against her and not Joe Biden.” So who was the real vice president last 3 and 1/2 years? Dick Cheney? Well, that certainly would explain a lot!
And ABC’s first guest post-debate is Tim Walz !
To be fair, they had JD Vance on following Walz. They should have had Vance debating Harris.
Vance sounded very well-spoken to start, but thinned out pretty fast.
Ok I went this far with Taibbi/Kern. But now it´s boring and I have more important stuff to do.
One questions: did the “journalists” address the assassination attempt just once?
Not as far as I have watched.
You would have a major scandal of bias just there.
Imagine such an attack would have happened to either Biden or Harris…
They would probably be floating the idea no election process necessary at all.
Just for compensation you know, trauma and stuff… “Come oooon, just give ´em the Presidency and don´t be a dick.”
I win! I didn’t watch.
Liver-failure isn’t the worst way to die…
I watched but had the sound off.
Kamala may flip some undecided to her.
She clearly won the debate to critical thinkers.
Not sure how many there are that will not vote Stein.
Not I. But she may have gotten a boost in the swing state race…which is all that really counts
Not sure how repeating slogans and meaningless homilies wins over critical thinkers.
I think this was a draw.
Yes. However, I don’t think anyone can dispute that this was a pretty decent sized “win” for Harris. She sounded fairly competent and reasonable through the entire debate. She didn’t self-destruct the way Rubio did in 2016, Harris herself did in 2020, or Biden God knows when that was. It’s probably a draw in the final effect, though: nothing that really hit on the people who were on the fence.
> She clearly won the debate to critical thinkers.
How so?
If your drinking game words included “ global warming”, you will wake up hangover-free in the morning.
Fortunately mine was fracking
Watching with a few friends, all various shades of blue.
Lukewarm to moderate support for Harris’ performance, none for Trump.
As the only greenie I tried to gently point out that both are deep into genocide (tho Harris did discuss Palestinian; that trump is right about lawfare; that both eagerly tried to prove how much they love fossil fuels.
But heavily vote shamed for expressing support for Jill, with no positives for offering brother west as my first alternative 😬
If I’m scoring, Harris wins on points but no damage done by either side
Moderators thumbs on the scale pretty subtle… not
“They’re eating our cats and dogs!” is my quote of the night. That’s what’ll show up in ads from Harris when talking about “weird” Trump.
> “They’re eating our cats and dogs!”
Winger hysteria, that one. Brought the gun up, pointed it at their own foot, fired, and maybe took down their own candidate, too. KRON4:
Trump campaign needs to do damage control on that one for sure. Or maybe they can bring out Lisa Simpson with a tearful story about her cat.
> If I’m scoring, Harris wins on points but no damage done by either side
Moderators thumbs on the scale pretty subtle… not
Thinking all the way back to 2000, when it took two days for the press to reverse the initial impression of a Gore win to a Bush win (Gore “sighed”).
Now I need to look at the transcript, yech.
On abortion: Talk about divisive! I don’t think it’s feasible to have a national law on abortion. The Democrats never codified Roe when they had the chance, and bet the farm (and women’s reproductive freedom, I might add) on the Supreme Court remaining stable. Now it’s too late. In fact, leaving it up to the states is the centrist position (and throws the pro-lifers under the bus, too), so the Court handed Trump a gift.
It doesn’t sound like she performed badly enough that she’ll get nobbled by donors and party faithful and replaced within a matter of weeks. So that’s arguably a win for her. The bar has been set pretty damn low.
We get the government we deserve. Tonight we got feces!
Belly up to the smorgasbord.
Smorgasbord of charred bones, bwana, eh?
Reminds me of this: “It’s a big sh1t sandwich and we’re all gonna have to take a bite!”
Full Metal Jacket, I think?
Appreciate all you East Coasters hanging in there. Me, I’m going back mi Los Padres